Cool comic about teaching enthusiastic consent
Maybe we should tell dudes not to drink?
The latter is in direct response to Yoffe.
Here’s what they’re doing at Penn State.
The easy answer is “include ample information about consent in sex education,” and that’s a good idea. The honest answer is that ending rape culture would mean completely reforming a culture that has sexism woven into its very fabric. That’s not an easy task and it isn’t going to happen quickly.
The drinking advice discussion aside for a moment the comic is interesting. On one level it seems very retro as a variant of this "enthusiastic consent’ approach was tried aggressively on many campuses, including mine, in the mid 70’s and later where police would walk up to couples in cars or in public date friendly spaces after hours and ask if the woman “do you want to be with the with this man”.
On another more subtle level it requires women to take complete charge of their sexuality in a proactive and non-coercive manner and cease to make sexual or relational consent on any level an effective reward or prize to be obtained from them with assertive seductive behavior or the promise of goods or resources.
Some would argue the “enthusiastic consent” requirement with respect to female sexuality expressed in the comic is somewhat juvenile if the desire or necessity (on some level) to be seduced is wired into the human female genome and brain. The model expressed in the comic is actively anti-seductive and requires very explicit consent at all levels.
If this seduction context is not wired in as an essential part of human female sexual decision making, but is primarily cultural then the view in the comic might have a chance of success through education.
Emotional coercion rape is far too broad and is actually laughable, think of it this way would emotional coercion invalidate a loan? Would it be considered duress in civil court? If emotional coercion is used to obtain a gift or money, would you consider that robbery?
Threatening to harm or kill someone or their loved ones to obtain sex is rape, telling them if you loved me you’d give me a blowjob is not. And what about unspoken coercion? If one partner knows the other partner wants sex and not providing would lead to the relationship suffering or ending, is that rape?
If that is rape well then rape is an everyday occurrence in nearly all relationships, nearly everyone is both rapist and rape victim. It is just laughable.
What about prostitutes? They don’t want to have sex with their clients, they do so out of financial need, often just to pay for rent or food. They often don’t even like or despise their clients. So is every transaction rape?
Where does one member of a married couple using elaborate sex acts as a bargaining chip fall? 
If you clean up the garage it is twice daily sex for a week…DEAL!
“If you loved me you’d give me a blowjob” may not be abuse in and of itself, but it’s certainly a warning sign. The man who raped, hit, and otherwise abused me said that sort of thing all the time. That progressed to “if you won’t have sex with me I will make sure you can’t (get to work/other needed thing)” which progressed on and on. I’ve heard hundreds of similar anecdotal reports from women.
If someone doesn’t really want to have sex but says yes because they need to do it for money, they want to make their partner feel good, etc. they are still consenting. It is not rape if you consent. If you aren’t sure where the line is, that’s where it is. Consent = not rape.
Consent protects everyone. It leaves no room for potentially life-ruining misunderstandings. It also can be hot. You can work out sexual communication with a partner over time so that you don’t need to necessarily have verbal consent for each act every time. Initially, saying what you like and don’t like is sexy, and anyone uncomfortable talking about sex probably shouldn’t be having sex.
The comic is definitely aimed at younger people. Seems to be meant for high school students?
Oh and consensual “bargaining” for sexual is consensual (“YES, I agree to have sex twice a day if you clean the garage!”) so is not rape.
Consent = not rape
No consent = rape
And if not, cue the first-year law-school hypothetical: So he paid the prostitute in advance, and they had sex, and then he left; next morning, she realizes he paid with counterfeit money! We all agree that’s a crime; question is, was it rape?
Based on the language used “I want whoever I’m bangin’ to have as much fun as me” it’s obviously for college kids and young adults not high school students unless you can think of some context where introducing it to HS students in any kind of official capacity would be remotely possible or acceptable.
Right, because high school kids don’t have sex or enjoy it when they do so we should make sure not to educate them about consent :smack:
Let’s not tell them how to properly use birth control either!
I’m not advocating its distribution or non-distribution to HS students which is what you seem to be wagging your finger at me about. I’m telling you that you would never be allowed to distribute this to HS students in a public HS as part of a public information campaign. Are you disagreeing with my assertion that there is no way on God’s Green Earth that comic would pass muster as on site high school handout literature?
What the actual fuck? Of course it is.
Yep.
Men and women commit rape and sexual assault. Men commit rape and other violent crimes more often than women, which does not mean that any individual rape is worse or more “legitimate” than another. All rape is horrendous. No one should rape.
Men, especially male children, are often hesitant to report rape or sexual assault because they believe that 1) no one will believe them, especially if it the perpetrator is a woman 2) if the perpetrator is male, they may be perceived as gay 3) the perpetrator will make good and his or her threats–and a variety of other reasons.
This is a huge problem and all victims need to be advocated for–I would say children, especially, simply because they have developed fewer coping mechanisms and abuse at a younger age may relate to worse outcomes for the victim. The book The Boy Who Was Raised As A Dog, written by an experienced child psychologist specializing in trauma, deals with this in several of its chapters, and is a good read.
I don’t understand why some men become offended when they hear that men rape more or that men should be educated about rape in certain ways because they rape more. It often seems like men feel accused of rape themselves when this happens. I don’t have cites; this is just my observation based on reading lots of comment threads like this and following articles on various news sites. More men rape doesn’t mean YOU ARE A RAPIST BECAUSE YOU ARE A MAN. Most As are Bs does not mean all Bs are As–pretty simple logic.
I think that this should be a high school handout and that its creator would agree. This certainly would have flown in my school district growing up (raised in Seattle). I imagine it would depend on region. Plenty of people want abstinence-only sex education and they would surely think this handout is obscene.
I’m a lightweight who can get pretty damn drunk off one glass wine, especially on an empty stomach. When I go on dates and we go to a bar, I’m careful not to get drunk in this silly kind way, but it occasionally will happen anyway. In all the times that this has happened, I’ve never been raped, nor endured any attempted rapes. In fact, usually nothing but fun times are had. But based on the tone of this thread, to protect myself from rape, I should stay away from alcohol so that I don’t lower my defenses excessively and give the guy that I’m with an unnecessary opportunity. As should most women like me. Okay.
Would most men in this thread who support Yoffe’s article be pleased with knowing that the reason that their dating partner abstains from drinking is so she can adequately defend herself if you decide to rape her? Because I have a feeling there would be much outrage at the thought of pegged as a potential rapist just because of one’s gender.
To men, the “ladies, don’t get drunk” advice only is palatable and feasible in an abstract world where women only take precautions around those “other guys”. Not with them. The idea that such precautions would apply to a woman’s male friends and acquaintances or even their potential love interests, more than it would a random sketchy dude at a party, is an easily overlooked one in all this talk about common sense. But logically, that’s where the road leads.
In a perfect world, women should be able to distinguish the potential rapists from the good guys, and act accordingly. In reality though, it doesn’t work like this. “Good guys” often advocate for a world that in truth they really don’t want. This would be mighty hilarious if it wasn’t short-sided and stupid.
Wait, I already know what the next response to this post is gonna be! It’s gonna be “well, the advice here is not to get sloshed-face. What’s wrong with telling women not to get so drunk that they lose consciousness, huh?!?” The problem is not that there is controversy to be found in the idea that maintaining consciousness is a good and prudent thing. The problem, in fact, is that it is so common sensical that its stupid to treat this like an useful anti-rape message. It implies that there is an epidemic of rape victims who came to be victimized because they were in a drunken stupor (And why do we think this? No evidence presented so far supports this belief…its among many ideas that are just floated out there sans cite). It also implies that women are acting in irresponsible ways (relative to whom?) and this irresponsibility is a problem that needs a-fixing.
With this as the dialog from the intro character “I want whoever I’m bangin’ to have as much fun as me” ?
All due respect I think your assertion re the Seattle public school system (or any US Public school system at any time) allowing a cartoon with this text to be distributed to students is utterly absurd. It’s such an odd assertion it makes me wonder if you even attended a US public school or were privately schooled or home schooled and simply don’t understand the limits of what you can do in a public school system.
Speaking as a man, it would fine with me that nobody, male or female, got passed-out drunk in public. If it is a woman and she is staying within the bounds of rationality just to keep from making herself vulnerable to me, that’s fine too. I’m not going to rape her no matter how polluted she gets, and I would like to be spared the bother of getting some sloppy drunk home.
Yet we saw all the examples earlier on of rapists who targeted drunk women, and they seemed to find people to attack. So apparently women are not getting the message all the time, common-sensical as you seem to think it is.
Regards,
Shodan
You mean other than the study cited in the second paragraph of the Slate article?
I stated that it should (not is) a high school handout. Here is the current King County sex ed curriculum.
There are some cartoons, not just of teenagers talking or whatever but also of an erect penis or two. At multiple points about slang terms/euphemisms are worked into the lesson, though of course medically correct terminology is taught. There is a lesson (#13) that is about consent, but it could be better. I do think the enthusiastic consent comic would be appropriate. FLASH is pretty liberal, making sure to mention trans and intersex people etc. etc. etc.
Do you NOT think that teenagers who are going to have sex anyway (regardless of what you think they should do) shouldn’t want their partners to experience pleasure? What’s the alternative? Or is it simply the word “bangin’” that troubles you?
Other than the blithering naivete about how sexually active adult American women want their males seduction and sexual interaction behaviors served up none of it bothers me in the slightest. Your suggestion that this cartoon had the slightest chance of being approved for distribution to a US public HS population (Seattle’s included) is what I was agog at.
I am a sexually active American female who finds enthusiastic consent hot and a good indicator of the dude I’m about to fuck not being an asshole.
I also cannot be bothered to debate anything at all with anyone who uses the word “blithering” in an earnest manner. I’m totally serious.
Not seeing a down side to that.
Regards,
Shodan