I was talking to someone the other day who was conjecturing that only a ‘handful’ of people have, in fact, summitted on Everest.
Now I know that of the ‘team’ only a few members summit but still, it seems to me it would be more than a ‘handful’.
I’m not really looking for an exact number, but do any of you have any idea of how many people have actually done this amazing thing?
More than 1,000 (probably closer to 1,300) climbers have summitted Everest since Mallory and Irvine first ascended it in the mid-20s. (I mean, Sir Edmund Hillary.) Most have taken the South Col, Southeast Summit route a.k.a. “The Standard Route.” The North Col route is more difficult, poses a higher objective risk, and has a higher death-to-success ratio. Hillary, in fact, when standing on the summit with Tenzing, peered over that very side and proclaimed it “unclimable.”
Far more difficult is K2. IIRC, fewer than two dozen Americans have reached the summit though, again, the northern approach is much more difficult.
I have friends/acquaintances who have summitted both–one who has summitted Everest five times–and he (a well-known figure renowned for his strength and drive, without oxygen) says the final 1,000 feet of Everest are an absolute killer.
BTW, IAAMC, but he is in a different league. During a climb, I asked him which is more difficult–K2 or Everest–and he said, as an all-around risk, it’s K2. But the roughly 775 foot height advantage of Everest makes it “exponentially more difficult.” It’s also the only mountain he says he would never return to. Another summiteer I know said that at one exposure near the Abruzzi Spur on K2, a single slip would find you tumbling all the way down to base camp. I knew he wasn’t exaggerating. He is (was) one tough bastard.
Here’s your answer. You can clearly see the problem in recent years.
I’ve not climbed anything higher than Mt. Sunapee in NH (or is Arthur’s Seat in Edinburgh higher?–both were more of a walk, really), but from what I understand, Everest is really considered a walk in the park by most serious climbers. If it weren’t for the altitude and the fact that the only technical climbing skills are required at Hillary’s Step at such a high altitude, no one would climb Everest. There are apparently at least dozens of more difficult climbs out there.
Of course, you’re completely wrong. Among the “serious climbers” who have died on Everest-the-cake-walk are George Mallory, Mick Burke, Ray Genet, Marty Hoey, Pete Boardman, Joe Tasker, Rob Hall, Scott Fischer, Mal Duff, and more than two dozen exceptionally talented high-altitude Sherpa. In his day, Mallory was a tough bastard and a gifted climber. Boardman and Tasker were perhaps the most gifted climbers of their generation. Scott Fischer was hell on wheels. Rob Hall commanded great respect among those who actually knew him. Marty Hoey, a female, was an ass-kicking climber who also met a tragic death.
Two years ago, I climbed two lesser-known peaks named Manaslu (8,156 m./26,758) and Cho Oyu (8,201/26,906). I trained like a SOB for 18 months, was in outstanding shape, and still was almost overwhelmed on a daily basis at how tough it was. (I failed on Manaslu several hundred meters from the summit.) Everest by any route is more difficult. When one of the world’s most accomplished high-altitude climbers personally tells me that summitting Everest w/o oxygen “is a bitch” and that his heart “is nearly leaping out of my chest,” I believe him–and he is almost superhuman.
There’s more to a mountain than technical challenge. Sir Chris Bonnington, a world-class climber, has tremendous respect for Everest, seeing how two of his climbing mates died up high on it. Jon Krakauer learned to respect Everest too. Though the SE ridge is less difficult than other routes, it still commands respect among those who have climbed it, among them Reinhold Messner.
Yes, there are more difficult climbs than the SE ridge, but until you’ve been at high altitude and are literally dying for air, you really shouldn’t pass judgment on it. Unfortunately, it has been turned into a zoo.
Is this Messner you spoke with?
(Me, I don’t trifle with altitude. I feel sick at 14,000 ft.)
Well, no, I’m not completely wrong. Yeah, Mallory was a fantastic climber and died on Everest. He also was up there what, 30 years before anyone made it up to where he most likely did? And Scott Fisher and Rob Hall in particular died because they did dumb things at high altitude, not because climbing Everest is technically difficult.
People die crossing the street–does that make it more difficult than climbing a 25,000 foot mountain?
Krakauer respects Everest, but because of the altitude. There was a Nova, I believe, with him on a climb in Antarctica, camped in a tent stuck to the middle of a several thousand foot vertical wall. He rhapsodized about that climb, how it brought the joy back into climbing, and I believe he said he wouldn’t go back to Everest again, either. Not because it was difficult, and not necessarily because of his experiences there, but because it wasn’t what mountain climbing was about, essentially because there was little climbing. If I recall correctly, there are a number of passages in Into Thin Air where Krakauer makes this point and mentions more difficult climbs.
You and your expert both said K2 is more difficult. I didn’t state as clearly as I thought I had that the altitude is what makes Everest a challenge. Maybe dozens is an overstatement (hyperbole, you know–sort of like “walk in the park”), but there are many more difficult climbs than Everest.
This page has an interesting list of 8,000 meter peaks ranked by danger (ratio of deaths to summits), and Everest comes in seventh. And only one of the other thirteen have had anywhere near as many summits, which I would argue indicates that the “tourist” climbers avoid them–partly because they are not the highest mountain in the world, and partly because they are more difficult to climb.
Any your high-altitude climbing experience would be–what???
A 4,000 foot knob in central New Hampshire?
Until YOU have been on a big mountain and have experienced first hand the dangers of climbing at high altitude, perhaps you might want to reconsider your opinion that climbing Everest is “a walk in the park.” You don’t know what the devil you’re talking about, but somehow think that watching a NOVA special at sea level makes you an authority.
Ever hear of the Kangshung Face? The Rongbuk? The Northeast Approach? Climbs like these–on Everest–have either turned back or killed the world’s best international climbers. Ever hear of Alex Lowe? Blanchard or Swenson? All are/were “serious climbers.” Again, Tasker and Boardman were the best. Both are dead. As were the others I cited. The southeast ridge is but one of more than two dozen routes. Yes, climbing parties have attempted to tame this approach–and insulted the mountain in the process–but it ain’t no “walk in the park.”
People who don’t know what their talking about start comparing mountains as though they’re baseball teams. You can’t do that; there are too many variables. Sure there are more challenging climbs than the SE ridge–a number of routes on Changabang, G4, Kanchenjunga, the Ogre, Trango Towers, Shivling, Nanga Parbat, Annapurna and more. But many, many routes on Everest can match them.
Last, I would urge you not to be so judgmental about Rob Hall and Scott Fischer. Both were outstanding climbers and great guys–their lifesaving feats on K2 in the early 90s were nothing short of heroic–and both deserve more respect than sea leveler wannabes calling them “dumb.” (There is a key factor relating to their deaths that has never been publicly disclosed.) High altitude climbing impairs cognitive functioning and decision making in ways you cannot comprehend through reading a book. Problems that appear simple from the comfort of a LazyBoy recliner are considerably more difficult in the death zone.
BTW, I wouldn’t accept Krakauer’s version as the Gospel.
I’ve talked to several climbers involved in the '96 rescue on Everest. A tiny little detail that didn’t make it into Krakauer’s “authoritative account” is that, on his way down the Hilary Step, he was so totally gassed that he collapsed and passed out and was barely hanging onto the mountain by his ice axe. One of the guides he was later so critical of saved his ass. Later, of course, Krakauer left everyone behind and beat a hasty retreat to his tent.
Not a judgment on my part, but a rock-solid FACT.
You’ve got a bit of a chip on your shoulder for some unknown reason, tsunamisurfer. I don’t think anything in my intial response calls for your attitude. I just erased a large part of this post which probably isn’t appropriate outside of the pit, but I have no desire to get in a pissing match with anyone over anything (well, not entirely true, but this sure isn’t it).
I’ll just say again that “walk in the park” is something called “hyperbole,” and many climbers don’t consider Everest among the most difficult climbs. Sure, there are more difficult routes to the top than the one usually taken, but it is easier to get to the summit of Everest than those of many other mountains by any route.
Lastly, criticizing people who comment on something they haven’t done personally is rather ignorant. It makes a mockery of the whole idea of education.
And for the record, I’m at 45 feet above sea level and don’t have a LazyBoy.
“Hyperbole” is a four-dollar word for B.S. and deserves refutation–that’s the purpose of this Board. You said Everest was a “walk in the park.” Now you have moderated your stance.
As for my alleged “chip,” not so. But I do know quite well a widow whose husband was killed in a high-profile climbing accident in recent years. He later got a lot of bad press, SHE has had to live with it, and she still hasn’t recovered.
As far as “education,” if you really want to know what high-altitude climbing is like, give a call to Alpine Ascents International. Prove yourself on a half dozen lesser peaks and they might consider taking you to one of the 8,000s.
After several of those, maybe you can work your way onto a private Polish or Japanese expedition to the base of the Kangshung Face–at which point, well, write back and let us know how hard it looks.
On second thought, I think I could have answered this with less attitude, Johnson. My apologies.
IANAMC (at all) - in fact, I know little about the activity beyond what I’ve read in Krakauer’s Into Thin Air and Boukreev’s The Climb (which I guess could be called a rebuttal of sorts to Krakauer).
Your comment about Hall & Fischer’s deaths piques my curiousity, though. Realizing that it may not be public for a reason (and thus you may not be able/willing to discuss it), can I ask you to elaborate - or hint? If you can’t or don’t wish to, I apologize for prying.
Wow, this discussion/debate/fight takes me back to my days in the mountaineering store. Anyway, thanks for calming down before I had to make you! - Belay Jill
I always like an interesting topic. I’m at 146 above sea-level in a recliner that has a rolling massager built into it. The highest peak I’ve climbed was a walk to 11,000 feet. I’m not in great shape, but this was an extraordinary workout. Just imagining someone attempting a 29,000 foot peak, where the air pressure is fatal to most mere mortals is too much to think about. Not to mention the risk of falling, etc…
It seems crazy to put oneself in that much danger, and I know climbers feel compelled to do so. What makes you guys tick?
Well, this is really starting to spin out of control like the recent pushup v. bench press thread…
Instead of focusing on me, I’d suggest reading something on K2 by a world-class climber. One of the world’s strongest climbers, nearing the 28,275-foot peak, is arguing incoherently with an auditory hallucination and is on death’s door. Or perhaps the account of Allison Hargreaves, the first female soloist who, returning after a successfil summit with an unrelated group, was blasted off the mountain when the jet stream took a savage dip. Greg Child is a particularly skilled writer.
Well, this is really starting to spin out of control like the recent pushup v. bench press thread…
Instead of focusing on me, I’d suggest reading something on K2 by a world-class climber. One of the world’s strongest climbers, nearing the 28,275-foot peak, is arguing incoherently with an auditory hallucination and is on death’s door. Or perhaps the account of Allison Hargreaves, the first female soloist who, returning after a successfil summit with an unrelated group, was blasted off the mountain when the jet stream took a savage dip. Greg Child is a particularly skilled writer. **
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NO! What makes you tick? Why do you climb? I know I can go to Barnes and Noble and find out what famous climbers want the public to think. Straight dopers want to know about Straight dopers.
P.S.: I imagine Cecil looks like Jerry Garcia.
That is a topic more appropriate for IMHO than General Questions. I invite you to start a thread about it there, if you’re interested.
bibliophage
moderator, GQ
I used to be a technical rock climber and even guided mountaineering trips in the Sierras. But when I had kids, I stepped down to hiking, backpacking and other outdoorsy things that don’t take me away from home for so long or put me in as much danger of being killed or incapacitated. I am a little flabbergasted at these guys who go on big expeditions while their wives are at home giving birth to babies or raising small children. You know if it was the mother doing these things, the public would be appalled. But men are parents too, and frankly I don’t understand it. Fischer and some of the other guys do it for their livelihood… but it also led to his death.
Well, if I can clarify something for the T-Surfer:
I think I know what Johnson is getting at with the “Everest is a walk in the park compared to some mountains” thing. I’m not a mountain climber either–I just read a lot, and I’ve heard it said, too, usually in the context of a book on mountaineering that’s written by someone who’s not exactly a mountaineer, but not exactly just a writer, either. Know the kind of book I mean?
Anyway, it’s usually accompanied by a photo that shows that final Everest ascent, where it looks like all they have to do is walk along that ridge, and usually the text will say something like, “Yes, it’s only one ridge, and all they have to do is walk along it, but it’s a long, hard walk, with the thinness of the air at that altitude…[etc.]”
And then usually the book will mention other, more “technical”, and thus more “difficult” final ascents, where they have to get out the ropes and the hammers and the pitons and the clippie thingamajigs, in order to make it that last few hundred feet up to the actual “tippy-top” so they can all take each other’s pictures and say, “Done the bastard!”
And–while I was sitting here typing this, I remembered the last time I read a version of this. It was in the TIME magazine cover story on the blind guy (Erik Weihenmayer) who “did” Everest, the June 18, 2001 issue.
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101010618/story.html
See what I mean? It sounds like all they have to do to summit is pick their way across a narrow ridge only 656 feet in length, then climb up a mere 39 foot rock face (which you can belly flop across), and then walk up a snow slope to the top. Word choices like “baby steps”, “walking up…a slope”, and “clambered up…belly flopping over the top” make it sound to the uninitiated like a Boy Scout rock-climbing expedition, compared to “real” mountaineering, with all the ropes and the pitons and “on belay!” and all that.