My problem with this slogan is, how do you express support for the predicament of the soldiers in the field while still being able to take issue with the fact that they are where they are in the first place? How do you take issue with an administration which has and is using lies and subterfuges to justify an invasion of another country, to say that as a Superpower and the purported “defender of all that right in this universe”, it is our RIGHT to do so? How do you show support when you don’t believe their mission is legal nor warranted?
IMO, the best way to show support is to do whatever is necessary to get the troops back home. Unfortunately, that calls for very frank and honest discussion of the issues at hand. However, doing so will often get you labeled as unsupportive, ungrateful, unpatriotic, a contributor to more deaths and worse.
It may be true that you are not aware that it happened. But I watched it happen on television to returning soldiers. They had things thrown at them and yells of murderer and some people in the front rows were spitting on them.
No I can’t furnish you a copy of the tape or even remember what channel it was on. But I did see it, ask around from older people who were there when it happened.
What atrocities are you referring to … Nick Berg’s, 26, from West Chester, PA, who was beheaded by animals in Iraq cutting his neck several times today while he was alive?
Well, I have a number of friends over there, as well as family members. i have a couple of guys that I have no idea who they are from adam but they have nobody in particular here in the US and I was asked if I would ‘adopt’ them and send them mail just to let them know they mattered. I also send them the same ‘care packages’ i send my friends and family.
What goes into the care packages? Simple things - hard candies, granola in individual serving bags, beef jerky in single serving bags, baby wipes, ziploc baggies, refresh eye drops in the single use capsules, hand lotion, nonalcoholic hand sanitizer, spf 15 lip balm, and paperback books. I usually send fairly generic ones - I find that Harry Potter is well liked, as well as Lord of the Rings, a number of the stand alone Terry Pratchett, louis Lamour, and anything else I have laying around. Most of the guys read them and pass them along as I tell them I dont need them back. I also stick in random general pictures I take around here of the seasons changing, nice winter in pines woods type stuff.
But if each side keeps retaliating, there will be no end to atrocities. Tit for tat is not going to work.
We really have only two choices:
Put our collective tail between our legs, pull out and let Iraq fend for itself. Saddam is gone, so we’ll see what the next dictator brings.
Drop all pretences, flood Iraq with as many soldiers as can be mustered and forcibly subjugate them though mass killings, fear, rape and pillage like in the old days.
"Tit for tat" … there isn’t any evidence, and I’ll bet there won’t be any abuse by the US military that involves slicing a person’s throat till his head breaks off.
There is no evidence in the history of the US military that they engaged in “mass killings, …, rape and pillage like in the old days” Removed “fear” since it is BS terminology. What are “the old days.”? What a bunch of propaganda …
Please. Get some perspective. In any country’s armed conflicts, there will always be some who disagree, but the population nearly always supports the troops. Read some history.
As far as specific ways to help and support the troops, there are numerous groups and organizations doing just that.
Here’s a page from anysoldier.us that includes a story and, at the bottom, several links to various other organizations. I especially like Books for Baghdad.
If only it were so. No nationalilty is immune to the brutalizing effects of war. War is leprosy for the soul. Read, if you will, Mark Twains writings about the American subjugation of the Phillipines.
This is not, by any stretch, to denigrate the American soldier or the American character. But when you swim in shit, you will stink. Period.
[QUOTE=iamme99]
… Tit for tat is not going to work… Drop all pretences, flood Iraq with as many soldiers as can be mustered and forcibly subjugate them though mass killings, fear, rape and pillage like in the old days.
[/QUOTE
"Tit for tat" … there isn’t any evidence, and I’ll bet there won’t be any abuse by the US military that involves slicing a person’s throat till his head breaks off.
There is no evidence in the history of the US military that they engaged in “mass killings, …, rape and pillage like in the old days” Removed “fear” since it is BS terminology. What are “the old days.”? What a bunch of propaganda …[/QUOTE]
Sigh, try reading a little less literally before pounding out a post. I didn’t say nor imply that we would cut anyone else’s head off. But we could shoot a whole lot more people or bomb a couple of cities in retaliation. Not as dramatic as loping off a head but still “tit for tat” if one action begets another.
And for your further edification, when I said “old days” I was referring to the “real” old days, like hundreds or thousands of years ago, not last year.
I suggest you read up on the atrocities by the Japanese on the Filipinos and on the Americans, Australians, etc. during the Bataan Death March (1941-1943). I didn’t know Mark Twain was even in the Philippines during this time? :rolleyes:
Some did. The more known recent example being the Israelis “refuzniks” that I often mentionned here.
Another option is to not enlist at the first place, precisely because you know that you can be send to fight in a war that you won’t approve morally.
Besides what does “support the troops” means exactly? I would argue that if you think a war is unjust, you shouldn’t support the troops (say, trying to boos their morale by sending them letters, etc…) because then you’re providing help to the “bad side” against the “good side”. Why should one suport it’s country’s soldiers risking their life for an unjust cause rather than the foreign soldiers who too are risking their life, but for the “just” cause? The fact that they happen to be born in the same country as you doesn’t mean they deserve more support than the guys they’re fighting.
And if they’re engaged in a really unjust war, then your moral duty should probably be to do everything you can to break their morale and posibly even to plainly shot at them.
That’s why I’m a conscientious objector. Fighting might be the thing to do in some circumstances, but there’s no way anybody is going to tell me what cause is worth killing or dying. This is a way too serious issue (the most serious possible issue, actually, IMO, since it involves both the worst crime and the greatest sacrifice) to let anybody else than yourself decide on it.
Whether you support the American soldier or his enemy may depend on what form of government you support. I don’t always like what this country’s leaders decide to do, but I sure wouldn’t want to live anywhere else in the world.
As for moral duty, who has all the facts that he can judge such things.
I will respect you if you chose not to kill for moral reasons, but if you indicate you would support the enemy, and therefor help in the killing of your countrymen, then you will get no respect from me. You are merely choosing sides not refraining from all killing for moral reasons.
The government usually has a place for conscientious objectors, during the big wars they served in non-combat roles.
It is interesting that in World War I the most decorated soldier was a conscientious objector.
Private York was given a rifle and told to kill Germans, he refused, but they sent him to the front lines anyway. After watching some of his friends die at the hands of the Germans, he grabbed his rifle and proceeded to kill 26 of the enemy and capture almost 200 of them singlehanded.
When asked why he changed his mind, he said: “I did it to save lives.”
In the final analysis if you are a true conscientious objector, and not just trying to blow your moral smoke up my whatever, you will not support either side. If killing is bad, and it is, then it is bad for everyone and every reason.
It takes real courage to take this stand and no courage to just choose the other side. You may have read when Jesus was about to be murdered, He would not let others fight for Him, and He forgave those that murdered Him.
That, my friend, is real moral courage, unlike what I find written in this thread.
They don’t represent any such thing. They represent the will of a bunch of neocon ideologues and a brain-damaged blowhard who got elected under EXTREMELY questionable circumstances.
Also, “support the troops” as I’ve seen it used generally means, “Support the war.” I support the safe return of the troops to American soil. I don’t support the fucking illegal, immoral, stupid, unjustifiable piece of shit war we engaged in with Iraq.
I’m with you on that. I’m a proud, patriotic, liberal American and any conservative who doesn’t like it can just move to Guatemala or some other fascist hellhole.
First off, I don’t know where you get off accusing me of blaming anyone for anything. I merely said that I’m sickened by the empty waving of flags by people who would support the likes of Bush and Ashcroft, who are a far bigger threat to our freedom than the Iraqi people are.
Hey, thanks for the history lesson, chief. What’s your point? And by the way… you’re repeating your rhetoric.
(sigh…when is this bullshit history lesson going to end?) You know, there are plenty of people on this side who would love to kill THE IRAQI CHILDREN, simply because they aren’t American. Again…it would be great if you would stay on topic here.
Now you’re starting to make some sense!
Fine. If you must, you can head up the Paranoia Department. Let the rest of us tend to the business of ensuring the freedoms we’re entitled to…'kay?
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if returning Vietnam vets were spat upon. They certainly were held in extremely low esteem and often encountered general public derision. At any rate, if it is an urban legend, it is one that the government believes. From the US Department of Veterans Affairs:
This is the best debunking…and you think that this proves your case? :rolleyes:
Well, unfortunately I can merely relate anacdotal info on this, as I was 5 at the time (1965). My dad was in the Navy fighting in Vietnam and getting off the ship in San Diago he and several of his shipmates were hit by water balloons filled with water and red food coloring (they were in white navy dress btw). Sure, it wasn’t spit, so I suppose you have a point there. Maybe the long hairs who did it were just trying to be playful? Maybe they wanted to liven up their dull white uniforms? :rolleyes:
As to the OP (warning…on review I was pretty pissed off writing this so beware of the flames…hopefully there are not overt insults in it, I tried to make the flames in general not AT anyone in particular…not even the OP):
Lets see if I get this right. You are saying that you shouldn’t support the troops (whos job it is to protect and serve our nation) because the government of your country (President, Congress, AND Senate) LAWFULLY sent people who had no say into a war IN OUR NAMES, but that they are somehow at fault for all that? Ok, so you didn’t elect Bush (neither did I)…SOTHEFUCKWHAT!!!
He IS our President, the Congress and Senate ARE our government, and they made a decision to send in the troops…in our fucking names. We ARE responsible, each and every one of us because its our nation and so its our collective fuckup. Democracy baby…got to take the good with the bad.
Ok, so you can certainly disagree with the government about its decision…more power too you. I’m with you all the way, lets vote the bastards out! But they ARE the lawful authority of this country, they made their decisions in our name, and the troops were rightfully obeying their sworn duty. How is it the TROOPS fault for gods sake? And if its not their fault, if they were doing their duty in OUR fucking names, why in gods name WOULDN’T you support them while decrying the government that sent them in. Its THEIR fucking fault, not the troops. :mad:
I really get sick of this whole chickenshit “its not MY government, its not MY war”. It IS your country, it IS your war, because you and I and all the rest are fucking citizens, and VOTING citizens to boot, in a democracy. That means that the majority rule in this country. If you don’t like that because your views may not be in the majority on some issue or another tough fucking shit…get out and vote or bolt for greener pastures.
Right or wrong we ALL have to take responsibility. And its cowardly fucking shit to stand on your little soap box and wave away responsibility because you personally didn’t want there to be a war or don’t like or approve of the current government. Sorry, doesn’t fly. Right or wrong, the decisions made were in our name…made in my name, made in your name. Don’t like the decisions? Vote the bastards out of fucking office then in November and whenever your Congressman or Senator comes up for re-election. Or fucking move out to some other country where you can wave away all responsibility for ITS governments actions…some totalitarian state where you really DON’T have any say and really aren’t responsible.
I’m bordering on being pit bound at this point so I’ll stop here. :mad: