:: thunderous applause ::
Nice rant. Now suggest you take a few deep breaths and please refer back to post #21. I’m still not clear on WHAT we are supposed to do “to support the troops” while still disagreeing with the administration that sent them there. And don’t forget that some unknown number of these troops support the effort themselves and volunteered purposefully to go fight this particular war. Why would I want to give them any further “support” as I disagree with their choice and their reason for being there?
As to anything relating to a “majority” in the past presidential election, it wasn’t so. If memory serves me well, on;y 51% of the people voted and approximately 25% voted for Bush. Not a majority of the USA at all. We could go on a tangent about if you didn’t vote then you don’t have the right to comment but that never gets us anywhere fast.
Lastly, let’s say there was some reasonable and realistic way “to show support the troops”. You know that such indication of support will be reported by the media and picked up by the Republicans to justify that the war is righteous and has the public’s approval. The resulting good-feeling sound bites will influence Joe Public to continue to support the current administration.
So as usual, it’s a “dammed if you do, dammed if you don’t” situation.
I’m sorry, but are you claiming that Bush and the current crop of Congressmen and Senators AREN’T the legal government? Hm, thats strange…here I thought they were…
So, there fore, if Gore had of been elected President, he wouldn’t have really been the President either since only 51% (or whatever the real number was) of folks voted? Had he of done something I personally didn’t like I could have simply disassociated myself from it because he isn’t MY President, right? :rolleyes: That would mean that Clinton wasn’t really the President either…nor Bush I, nor Regan, nor… So, I don’t have to be responsible for anything the US ever does I suppose. Great!
Fact is, Bush WAS elected President, the Congressmen WERE elected to Congress, Senators same, and on and on. If ‘only’ 51% of the people voted, then thats just tough shit (though I find it a travisty that people can’t get off their fat asses to go vote). Its still your (and my) country, its still your government…you can’t simply wave aside your responsibility and disassociate yourself from its doing. I’m sure you WILL do so (or try too), but deep down you know you can’t, and for my part I won’t let you.
Now, from the perspective of ‘the majority’ for or against the war, I’d say its pretty clear that early on there WAS a majority for the war. Whether they were misled or not is another debate, but they were certainly for it, and our government who were duly elected representitives of the people (thats you and me if it escaped you) made the decision to do what they did. In fact, the most recent polls I’ve seen say that a slim majority is STILL for keeping the troops there. You might disagree with the majority view, but unfortunately you live in a democracy. Remember when YOUR view is the majority that others who don’t agree with it have to live with things as well. Thats the system we have.
I know this? Hm, thats strange. I’m not sure how I ‘know’ this. I support the troops in the fact that I sympathize with them, I don’t degrade them or heap abuse, scorn or blame on them, and generally I’m appreciative at the sacrifices they make for me and mine…and for you as well. I show my opposition to the current Administration as well as my own Senators and Congresscritters by NOT VOTING FOR THEM AGAIN.
Not at all. Express your views, make your displeasure in the current Government felt, protest to your little hearts content, march on washington, write long screeds in The Pit, start a movement to unseat the current government in the next election…and most importantly, get out and vote. But don’t blame the troops for doing their duty for their country, for being ordered to do something you don’t personally agree with. Whether the troops themselves want to be there or don’t want to be there is irrelevent, as they have no say in it…they are simply doing their duty and acting on the legal orders of YOUR (and my, god help me) government.
-XT
I’m sorry, but I don’t accept that. I expressly waived my personal responsibility for what this administration did by voting against it. So did the majority of individuals who voted in the 2000 election.
Just because I’m sitting in a big bowl of milk doesn’t make me a Cheerio.
By the way, I started a thread just like this when the war started, and I learned something from it: Not all the soldiers want to be there (duh, I know it seems obvious now).
What 1%, cite, facts …
Huh?
The thing is, all the harrassment of troops returning from Vietnam has led right-wingers to internalize the notion that opposition to a particular war automatically equals disrespect for the troops. So now the slogan “Support the Troops” is used to shame anyone who opposes the Iraq War by imlpying that they oppose the troops, instead of having the intellectual honesty to say, “Support the President” (OK, “Liberarate Iraq” was an honest sentiment).
Just look at the pro-war rallys that were billed as “Support the Troops” rallys. At one (I think in NY), someone had a placard saying “Where were you when the towers fell?”. Where was who? The troops? These weren’t pro-troops rallys, there were anti-anti-war rallys. They weren’t saying “Troops, we support you”, there were saying, “You’d better support the troops by supporting the war, damn you”.
Notice how “Support the Troops” signs began appearing months before the decision to invade Iraq had actually been made. This was fitting for a pre-emptive war in that it pre-emptively went after weapons-of-mass-lack-of-support-for-the-troops.
Did you move to another country? If not, then you CAN’T wave your responsibility. Otherwise, then everyone who doesn’t get the President/Congressman/Senator they want can do the same thing. ‘Sorry, its not my responsibility, I didn’t vote for him’. Horseshit. Are you a citizen? Is this your country? Then you as well as all of us are responsible for its actions, whether you like them or not.
As to the election bullshit, sorry…Bush IS the President, legally sworn in, reguardless of the irregularities in the election. Don’t like it? Then vote against him THIS time and hope that the EC vote goes to Kerry this time. Reguardless, its bullshit to disassociate yourself because you don’t like Bush or agree with his actions. Bush isn’t the whole government for one thing, and he had Congressional and Senatorial support, as well as the support for going to war by a majority of the people at the time (not that this matters either). For another thing, its your fucking country too, and you are a citizen, so at the base level you, just like me and everyone else, is responsible for its action. Your agreement of my statement is not required. Your vote is.
Hey, you don’t want to be a citizen of this nation, fine by me…go somewhere else. But if you CHOOSE to stay here, then you ARE a citizen, and that makes you one of the cheerio’s, baby. Hows that milk tempature in your part of the bowl?
Hey, I’m not saying the right isn’t using all this (both sides use and spin everything to suit themselves), nor that there was a backlash after how our CONSCRIPTED troops were treated during and post-Vietnam. I’m simply talking basic responsibility as citizens, as well as common decency in appreciating the fact that those troops are there for US as a people. I’m not saying you have to fawn all over them, nor am I saying you have to follow the government in some zombie like way. Hell, I’m all for protesting, I’m all for using your right as a citizen to make your displeasure felt, I’m all for using your vote to make your statement. However, I’m at a loss how folks can blame the troops for what our government (OUR government) has done, and how they can’t ‘support’ them at least at a basic respect and appreciation level.
-XT
This is simply un-democratic. The responsibility of every supporter of real Democracy is to realize that his/her side might be temporally in minority and the other side in majority, or vice versa. When your side prevails, what do you expect the opposition to do?
I don’t know, try to impeach the president over a blowjob?
Fine with me. I wouldn’t want to live in the US, either.
Then, nobody can. You always have to decide on issues on the basis of uncomplete knowledge
Where did I state the contrary? I clearly said I refuse to serve in an army because I’ve no confidence in anybody being able to tell me what cause is worth fighting for, let alone in any government to use its army only when a war is necessary and just. Gods know that nor the US government nor mine have been reluctant to send soldiers fighting an unecessary/unjust war. I never said I opposed war and the killing it entails in all circumstances. It just happens that the only choice I have been offered was to become a soldier or to become a conscientious objector (or to pretend I was unfit for service).
If it’s a non-combat role within the army, that would be a no-no too for me. Many (most) soldiers don’t serve in combat position, but nevertheless are as much necessary as the combatants for the army to operate. If I were opposed to a war, being placed in a non combat position which would nevertheless implies being part of the whole war machine would makes only a marginal difference from the moral point of view. Fortunately, french conscientious objectors can’t serve in any military position. Only in civilian positions which might entails a risk (decontamination, rescue, etc…).
Nope. He did it to save his countrymen’s lives, not lives in general even if it resulted in possibly most (german) lives being lost. IIRC he was used as a propaganda tool at the time.
I never said killling was bad in any circumstances, and I’m not obligated to fit your definition of what a conscientious objector should think/believe. Once again, I think killing and risking one’s life is too serious a decision to be left to anybody else, especially not politicians who have a very poor record in this area, and are frequently willing to send others do this sort of things for various unsavory motives.
It doesn’t take courage to take this stand or any other for that matter . It only takes courage to stand by your convictions when actually facing a risk. And choosing the other side takes exactly (and actually in most cases more) courage than fighting for what is supposed to be “your” side (on the basis that you were born here and not there).
And on what basis is courage reserved to people who fight on their country’s side or don’t fight at all? To take the WWII example, does it mean you’re denying courage to the ukrainians who choose to join the german army and fight their countrymen, or on the other side to the french resistance? It took them as much courage as other combattants, with the added bonus that they would be summarily executed (at best) as traitors if caught instead of of being taken as WPs. Didn’t the Israelis “refuzniks” I already mentionned displayed no courage when they accepted to fight for Israel, but also accepted to face jail time when they were ordered to serve in a position they found morally unacceptable?
Oh, and by the way…You won’t find any courage in any thread. Courage exists only in actions. Words are cheap.
(except if one happens to be posting political material while living in an oppresive country, but it’s highly unlikely to happen on this board).
Aw, man, awesome riposte! In your face, Republican Party! :eek:
I don’t get it. Are you justifying the impeachment?
You have heard, I trust (trust, hell, I hope), of the Spanish-American War and the Filipino Insurrection?
The question is valid. How does a person of conscience both seek to help the young people who make up the point of the spear while rejecting the justification for and the objectives of the war? The obvious first step is to challenge the demagogues and their followers who bray that any departure from marching in lock step with the President and his merry band is a betrayal of the young men and women that the President and his merry band have sent in to do the dirty work. Step two is to challenge each and every assertion that Afghanistan and Iraq are equivalent and that there is some generalized war against terrorism that justifies every thing. Step three is to remove from office the demagogues and their lick-spittles who dgagged us into this fiasco and find a way to restore order to what is starting to look like a major cock up. Step four is to promise those young men and women that their sacrifices will not be forgotten and that they will not again be asked to make those sacrifices without necessity.
There always will be a debate over whether a person can be a good, and virtuous servant of a corrupt cause. Some of the best men I knew were good soldiers in what seems to be generally accepted as an ill-advised war, some of them died and some were maimed but they were good people who did their best for a cause they had their doubts about. Some of them hated the war but they did what they saw as their duty to themselves and their comrades. It made no difference to them that some politician was making hay with their sacrifice. That’s what feather merchants do. It doesn’t make any difference to the kid with the automatic rifle if you have a “support our troops” sign in the front yard or a tattered flag on your car. He cares about the guys he shares a hole with and getting home alive but with some shred of self respect.
The last time “support our troops” meant any thing except “and vote for me,” it was used to sell war bonds.
Sorry, but I don’t understand what you’re saying here. How do you stop somebody from being 100% apathetic regarding the war and politics? Lots and LOTS of people don’t give a shit either way. Lots of people simply close their eyes and ears and say, “I don’t care.” I’d venture, by the voting statistics alone, that MOST people have waved aside their responsibility and have disassociated themselves from anything to do with this (or any) government. You can be pissed off about it, but please don’t make it sound like it’s anyone’s duty. It ain’t. It’s a privilege.
Not from where I’m standing. Nearly everyone I associate with was against it.
Wrong again. He didn’t even bother to consult with the most important members of his cabinet before making the decision to go in. Rumsfeld wasn’t consulted. Powell wasn’t consulted. His own fucking FATHER wasn’t consulted. The only one who had the chat with him was “God.” According to Bush himself.
And I’ll call you on it. I can’t MAKE you be responsible, but I can point out that you are attempting to shrug your responsibilities and I won’t let something like that just slide in a thread like this. Understand now?
And you know over 50% of all the people in the country? Astonishing! There is a famous quote I’m too lazy to look up. To paraphrase though, there was a wealthy woman (who’s name escapes me) who basically said she couldn’t understand how Nixon was elected since all HER friends voted against him…
Really? I didn’t realize that any President had such powers. :rolleyes: Didn’t consult and gain the approval of Congress, didn’t consult or gain the approval of the Senate, didn’t consult the Joint Chiefs or even his own Cabinet? Wow? And he only needed to gain the approval of God, hm? Well, color me informed now! I simply never knew a President could do such things. I guess he really IS the king… :rolleyes:
-XT
Different war Seng. elucidator was referring to the subjugation of the Phillippines after we took them from Spain in the Spanish-American War, ca late 1890’s.
Xtisme, How can I be responsible for this war if I never offered my complicity? I have never offered moral support for this unjust and illegal war (if you disagree with “illegal war”, even minimally it is an unsactioned war.) Am I responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis if I have never personally killed a single one and have not supported the leader that has executed this war? Are all Iraqis responsible for the death of Nick Berg? I think objectively we have more resonsibility than the Iraqis in creating the conditions that made his death possible. That is taking responsibility for this war.
If you believe the propaganda and “Support the Troops” then you are buying into the primal tribal instinct that will perpetuate this war and all others to come. It is unthinking and dangerous.
[QUOTE=iamme99]
But if each side keeps retaliating, there will be no end to atrocities. Tit for tat is not going to work.
[QUOTE]
I know this is probably a bit of a hijack, but hasn’t Israel proven over the last few decades that you are, in fact, correct?
-Joe, sincerely wondering…while recalling a definition of “insanity”