Support Our Troops!

Great Debates
61

Your ‘complicity’ is implied Devil. You are a citizen of this nation. Did you actually read what I wrote before? The Government of the US is BY the People (thats you and me) and FOR the People (thats you and me again). Get it? You are a citizen, the government REPRESENTS you, and me and everyone else who is a citizen. When it takes actions (in our names), we are responsible for those actions. Whether you agree or disagree is irelevant to your responsibility. Unless you want to repudiate your citizenship and go to another nation, in a democracy the citizens are responsible for the actions of THEIR Government. And it IS your government, just like its mine. I don’t happen to like the government that is currently in power, but its still my government, just like its yours. If its not, why have a nation, and what is the meaning of democracy??

Ya, I disagree with ‘illegal’ war as I’ve said in multiple threads on that score. ‘Illegal’ in what way? Certainly not by the laws of THIS nation. The President asked for it, Congress authorized it…its perfectly legal. As to the UN Charter, there are so many holes and precidence of OTHER nations doing the same thing its pretty much meaningless IMO, because the major powers ignore the thing or not as they choose. Sanctioned? Again, by who? Sorry, this is a knotty question that won’t ever be resolved, but at its base level, the war in Iraq, while stupid, short sighted and all the rest WAS perfectly legal by our Government and our own laws.

Well, leaving aside the ridiculous ‘hundreds of thousands of Iraqi deaths’ thing, yes, you ARE responsible, because its your fucking country, and you are a citizen. As to Nick Berg, the Iraqi’s aren’t responsible at all (afaik) because it was AQ that did the deed.

Does this make all Arabs responsible? Um, no. For one thing, AQ isn’t a country, and its not a democracy either. I’m sure this point slipped your mind. Even the things Iraq WAS responsible for, however (such as the war with Iran, the invasion of Kuait, the various atrocities committed by their government, etc), the citizens had a much more limited ‘responsibility’ for…because their government WASN’T represented by the people, they had no input into the system at all, or at most VERY limited input.

So, it THEIR case, SH and his thugs were primarily responsible for the things they did. Thats why I suggested earlier that you go to a totalitarian nation if the responsibility of being a citizen is too heavy for you to bear…then you really wouldnt be responsible for its actions and you could kick back and be smug in your moral rectitude. Doesn’t wash here though, as you DO have input into your government, you CAN speak out, start a movement, vote, write your congresscritter or senator, or even the President himself if you’ve a mind too, etc etc.

-XT

62

I know what I wrote in my first post was long, and I do tend to bang on a bit, but did you actually READ it? Who said anything about believing the propaganda? You might not believe this, but you are the only one sharp enough (snort) to see through the spin the various politicians or political parties put on things. Of COURSE they are going to spin things to their benifit.

However, if you had of read what I wrote, you’d have seen that when I said ‘support the troops’ I meant it from a respect standpoint for people doing their duty, putting their lives on the line for you and me and everyone else in the nation. You would have read that the troops had no say in what they do or where they go…they are doing their duty to the citizens and the nation…thats you and me bub. They are putting their lives on the line to serve this country when it told them to do so. Ya, I think that deserves our support and our respect. Has nothing to do with protesting the war, disagreeing with the Government, wanting to boot their asses out, etc etc. You don’t have to revere or worship the troops, you don’t have to blindly go along with the GOVERNMENT because you respect the troops or support them. Don’t like what YOUR government is doing? Vote against them then. Start a movement like Moveon. DO something instead of whine about it.

You are making the same mistake that folks in the 60’s made…blame the troops for the policies of the Government…YOUR Government. In essence, you are blaming them for doing their duty TO you for something we (the collective ‘we’) asked them to do. Doesn’t seem sane to me. If blame needs be handed out, if scorn needs be heaped, it should plop down on the Administration, the Senate, the Congress…and ultimately on the collective ‘us’, we the people, who are ultimately responsible.

Any of this getting through? :dubious: This is ‘citizenship 101’, something you should know already being born and raised in this country (I assume you were).

-XT

63

I do not assume moral culpability based on my citizenship. I assume moral responsibility based on my individual opposition to this war. How exactly was this war democratic? Other than an “elected” President with arguable legitimacy misled the people with propaganda and outright lies and prosecuted a war illegally. That doesn’t represent the people, it represents a personal agenda. Yes, I am stuck on a ship of fools but I ain’t doing the navigating. It’s honorable and mighty patriotic to go down with the ship and all, but I’ll just keep bailing water, Thank you very much.

64

So, I guess the guys at MoveOn and all registered Democrats who voted for Gore are exempt from responsibility for Bush’s actions, right? As are those who now support Kerry. We are, after all, doing something.

No responsibleization without representation, and I for one haven’t had any in the last four years.

65

Either I’m speaking in tougues here or you are putting me on. Did you actually read anything I said? If you are joking, next time use the rolley eye thingy. If not…seek help.

Then you are a child throwing a temper tantrum. How was the war democratic? Because the democratic government that represents you chose to do it. Illegal? Thats funny. WHY was it ‘illegal’? Because you don’t like it? Because the UN didn’t sanction it? Sorry. By the laws of the land (namely that Constitution thingy…perhaps you’ve heard of it?), the President needs to get Congressional approval to initiate a war such as Iraq…he got Congressional approval. He got Senate approval as well.

You can wave your hands about all you like and babble on about the Charter (I assume this is what you mean by ‘illegal’), but the fact remains that the war by our laws wasn’t illegal. Even by the charter, the word ‘illegal’ means nothing. Nor is breaking it, bending it, or ignoring it unprecidented. Hell, the LAST violation of the charter was by NATO in Bosnia. And there is a VERY long list of major powers (including the US) who have violated it when they felt like it. Some ‘law’. :rolleyes: Were you up in arms over Bosnia, devilsknew? Did you also disassociate yourself from the governments actions when it was Clinton at the helm? Do you grant all the Conservative/Republicans on this board an out to repudiate HIS government, HIS actions, HIS decisions, because they didn’t vote for him (I actually did, so I guess I’m responsible…or maybe no one is by your lights?)? I DIDN’T vote for Bush…but its still my country, I’m still a citizen, and there fore I’m still responsible for the decisions made by my government. I didn’t vote for him…but Bush is still my president, gods help me.

Sorry, to me its childish to pick and choose when you are a citizen and when you aren’t based on if your candidate is in power or if you happen to like or dislike the decisions made in your name by your government. Its also VERY hipocritical of you and the others making this case. Unless of course you grant the same to the opposition when its YOUR candidate in charge, your policies being followed, and allow them to completely disassociate themselves from any and all responsibility of YOUR government (not theirs of course). And if thats the case…why have a country? If we are only responsible when we want to be, only responsible when our candidate is in power, then whats the point of democracy? Next thing you know, you will be disallowing responsibility when your candidate IS in power, but you simply disagree with his policy de jure.

I guess I don’t see why this is so hard to grasp. Why you can’t grasp the fact that you can disagree with the government, you can strive to get rid of it, speak out against it, you can even hate the current government…while still understanding that it IS your government, and you ARE responsible for its actions, because thats what being in a democracy is all about. If you can’t grasp that essential fact, then there is no common ground to continue this discussion along these lines so we might as well both throw up our hands and walk away. I’ve answered your OP to the best of my meager abilities.

-XT

66

Why don’t you try one more time?

Tell me exactly how I should go about demonstrating to the world that I accept responsibility even though I hate this administration?

And then tell me how that’s different from what I’m already doing.

67

So, you want to demonstrate so you can justify yourself to others then, not from your own inner convictions? Got to prove something to ‘The World’, ehe? Sorry, I can’t help you. I’m more self contained than that. I don’t need to prove shit to The World or anyone else either…my convictions are my convictions. They (or you) don’t like them, well, I’ll muddle through somehow.

Now, if you want to know what you can do for yourself, I’d say if you are opposed to the present Government, then a good first step would be to become actively politically. Contribute to Kerry (or Nader if thats more your style), and volunteer your time and energy to getting the word out. If you are opposed to the war, send letters to your states Senators and Congressmen, and again get active and get others too as well…enough people send in their letters of displeasure and I guarentee the government WILL listen. Send letters to the Administration calmly (if you rant and rave I promiss your letters will go into the circular file) laying out why you disagree and how disappointed you are. And most importantly, get out and vote in November and when your local Congressmen/Senators are up for re-election as well. Vote every chance you get and encourage others to vote as well. That enough for you for starters?

Um…how the hell should I know what you do or don’t do JJ? Why don’t YOU tell ME if you really feel you must?

Because its pretty obviously pointless from where I’m sitting. Obviously our ideas of what citizenship and the voting franchise means are radically different. In addition, my guess is if Gore was president and we were having this same conversation and someone like december (just to use a defunct conservative/republican as an example) was saying that Gore wasn’t HIS president, that it wasn’t HIS government, wasn’t HIS problem or responsibility, blah blah blah, you’d be all over him, and I would be saying exactly this same thing to him instead of you.

In other words, I think that the folks saying this shit are hipocrates, unless you can honestly tell me that if things were reversed you’d be letting the other side skate their responsibilities as citizens simply because they didn’t vote for the president you favor but they didn’t. Citizenship in a democracy simply doesn’t work that way IMO. Obviously many of you don’t agree. So be it. Why continue to beat a dead horse?

-XT

68

Fine. But the Vets with whom I’ve spoken began their sentences with “I was,” not “Someone I know was,” or “we were.” They could be lying, but I’ve got no reason to believe that.

Do you have some evidence that those folks were lying other than the idle speculation of people who were obviously not around for the incidents in question? Or perhaps you are unwilling to entertain the possibility that even peaceniks were capable of doing shitty things to other people?

69

“Support our Troops” is a completely meaningless phrase: everybody supports the troops. It just serves to distract us from the real question: Is the policy that got the troops there a good one?

70

Everybody?

71

Everybody, eh? Does that include the guy who followed me through town one day while I was in uniform just so he could call me a murderer?

Oh, you meant everybody in the sense of the statement “everybody knew there were WMDs”, a statement you’ve consistently denied was true.

There are no absolutes, dude. If this war has taught you anything, it should be that you can’t say the words “never”, “always”, or “everyone/everybody”.

72

I would really like to know just how the troops in Iraq are putting their lives in danger on behalf of my democracy. My democracy was never threatened in any way by Iraq; Iraq under Saddam couldn’t have attacked the USA if we had spotted them six months to prepare. The troops in Iraq are there because they were sent there by a moron who managed to conive his way into the Presidency and then mislead the public by lying and misrepresenting information to make it appear that Iraq did pose a threat. I support our troops inasmuch as I feel they deserve everything we can possibly do for them, beginning with getting them the hell out of there ASASP. But they ARE NOT defending democracy and they ARE NOT fighting any damn war on terror. They are fighting to preserve their lives in a senseless conflict that should never have occurred.

73

If you would REALLY like to know, then read back through the thread…I think this has been answered multiple times already, though you may not like the answers.

<on last attempt>

Let me lay it out in simple words: A) Troops go where they are told. B) There were told to go to Iraq. C) They have no choice in the matter…they are simply doing their duty, carrying out the orders given them by duly elected and authorized representatives of all of us. D) The orders given were legally given by the duly elected civilian branches of our government, i.e. the President, Congress and the Senate authorized it, as is their legal right. E) That authority stems from you and I, as its a government by the people and for the people. F) In real terms, that means that the decisions were made FOR us all, as its a representational Government with checks and balances on the power of any one branch, and answer-able TOO us via the election process. G) Sometimes we as individuals disagree with what our Government is doing. H) If enough of us disagree with the Government we get a new Government come the next elections.

Ok, so you disagree with the actions of YOUR government to do what it did with respect to Iraq. You have a recourse (actually you have many)…vote (the most important one).

/quick hijack
On your rant about Iraq I’ll say only one thing. You are WAY over simplifying things there. Its really not that black and white, its pretty complex with lots of shades of grey. There WERE legitimate reasons for going into Iraq. Personally, I think the reasons to NOT go in far outweighed the reasons TOO go in, but its far from a completely ‘senseless’ conflict. You might want to dig in a bit deeper and open your mind some. You will most likely STILL come out of it (like I have) with the conviction that it was unnecessary, but this isn’t a cartoon universe, and things aren’t nearly as simplistic as you are making them out to be.

You also might want to consider the very real fact that Bush by no means did this all on his own. He simply couldn’t. No US President has that kind of power, and for very good reasons IMO. You can try and delude yourself that he simply tricked Congress and the Senate into going along, or that it was only the Republicans that supported this war, but the facts simply don’t bear this out. Even with a Republican controlled House and Senate, they would be falling on GW like a ton of bricks atm if he REALLY had deliberately tricked them into supporting a war.
/end hijack

-XT

74

As far as I’m concerned, the only time you can chastise war opponents about how the soldiers are fighting to preserve your way of life is if they are actually fighting to preserve your way of life.

Bringing democracy to an oppressed country is a noble goal. But it’s not preserving my way of life.

75

My point exactly.

76

Off topic, but my problem with this “love it or leave it” crap is not only that it’s a jerky thing to say, but that it implies one has any choice whatsoever about their citizenship. I am a U.S. citizen because I was born in the United States, and I obviously didn’t have any control over that. Other countries have immigration laws, just like the United States - we don’t live in a world of open borders. If I were to go to another country to live permanently, I would be there illegally, deprived of the rights of citizenship and subject to deportation at any time.

77

Who said anything about loving it? You can hate it as long as you accept your responsibility. I fully agree that trying to dodge your responsibility just because you voted for some other guy than the current president or at some point demonstrated against the war just doesn’t hold any water. Who if not Americans (US’ers) should be responsible for the US?

78

The post I responded to clearly stated that Americans choose to live in the United States, which is false for the majority of Americans. I live in the United States because cannot legally (or practically) live and work anywhere else.

And anyway, what does this responsibility consist of? I vote, I take to the streets in protest, I speak out against injustices perpetrated by the U.S. government, I give whatever time and money I can afford to political causes. How is this “dodging my responsibility”? What is it I’m supposed to be doing as a responsible citizen? It seems you are conflating the idea that the American population as a whole bears responsibility for their government with the idea that each individual American has some responsibility. And the idea that the “American people” are responsible is based on the dubious assumption that we live in a functioning democracy. After all, you wouldn’t blame the Iraqi people for the actions of Saddam Hussein, would you?

79

The last time the American way of life was threatened from actually being invaded and occuppied by a foreign power was during the War of 1812.

The last war to defend democracy in america was probably the Civil War (giving democracy to former slaves).

All other wars since then have been wars to defend our allies and maintain hegemony over the rest of the world.

80

<shedding tears> I totally sympathize with you, being born against your will in such a horrid country as the US instead of, say, North Korea or various Northern African nations. It breaks my heart, really. :rolleyes: As it turns out, I WASN’T born in the US, however I didn’t really have a choice either as my folks came here when I was too young to decide. So I guess I’m trapped here as well, a virtual slave to this evil nation…

However, I think that if you REALLY wanted to leave for greener pastures, you could find a country that would take you in, unless you are totally worthless from a work perspective (almost all the nations I’ve been to have immigration laws, sure, but if you have valuable skills you can get in no sweat). Have you actually even tried to look into it? At a guess, no…better to just wave your hands and feel oppressed and stuck here I’m guessing. Because I know ex-pat Americans in Canada and in various countries in Europe (England and France to be specific), as well as a few in India and various other countries…not many, sure, but there ARE a few. So I KNOW it can be done if you really want too.

As far as the ‘love it or leave it crap’, did you actually READ what I wrote (I feel like a broken record here, but I’m getting the impression that most of you read about 2 lines and your heads exploded). What I SAID was, if you don’t like represenational democracy and can’t handle the fact that sometimes your pet politician or political cause is not in vogue by virtue of the election process, and can’t understand that it doesn’t MATTER if your pet politician is in office as far as your responsibilities as a citizen goes, then you’d be much happier elsewhere.

-XT