Here’s a question that has been on my mind for a while, and I think this is the perfect thread to raise it in. Consider some examples of non-standardness:
[ul]
[li]Someone says to me: Can I aks you a question?[/li][li]Someone writes: I went too the store.[/li][li]A sign says: Apples “only” ten cents each[/li][/ul]
Exactly WHY do these bother me so much?
Several posters here seem to feel that these sort of things are natural, and in the course of time any or all of them could end up being Standard English. So why are they so annoying? The simple answer is that they aren’t standard yet. A deeper answer is that the other person was lazy and/or insufficiently educated, and my brain has to work harder to interpret what they said. Granted that in most cases I’m working only slightly harder, but in some cases I really have to work on it.
If I’m ranting (or just cranky), just say so and I’ll stop. But there’s a dichotomy between “nonstandard is natural” and “nonstandard is (somewhat) difficult to understand”, and I don’t like it.
Some of them yes - if enough people make the same mistake then the “mistake” becomes the new standard.
^ This.
Context is important. If a person consistently does a thing differently than everyone yes it can be defined as a mistake, if everyone does it, it’s a dialect or jargon or slang. If the “mistake” does not interfere with understanding, it might be seen as a clever turn of phrase and become popular (which is how quite a bit of slang becomes standard). If the mistake prevents understanding then, yeah, it’s a mistake and unlikely to catch on.
Oh, and my contributory example: “Normalcy”. The original term was normality (which I still favor myself) but “normalcy” has caught on. The word is usually attributed to President Warren G. Harding around 1920 or so, a case where one person’s mispronunciation has become an accepted variation and seems to be on the way to dominance.
Another example of a deliberate change is that of names. When Peking was changed to Beijing, and Bombay to Mumbai, and Cassius Clay to Muhammad Ali, those were totally legitimate changes and if it is difficult for some people to get used to, that’s too bad.
On the other hand, even in that arena, the public’s tolerance can be pushed only so far, as witnessed by The Artist Formerly Known As Prince And Now Known Again As Prince.
…except in the US it’s spelled without the second I. Americans have been putting their spelling mistakes and mispronunciations into American dictionaries and calling them “correct” for a long time now.
Example: While Z is a cool letter, it’s called “zed” and not “zee” and it doesn’t belong in words like analyse and realise.
*Mais non, ce n’est pas la même chose. *Speaking English with French rules sounds just as bad as speaking French with English rules (not the same as speaking with an accent).
It may be now, but once upon a time all those letters at the ends of French words were pronounced; and when kids started dropping them, I bet their elders were positively furieux.
Mispronounced words have become standard to a degree, I think. Partially due to “ethnic diversity” and political correctness. For example: Floor = Flo, sure enough = Sho 'nuff, ask = axe… you get the idea.
Political correctness comes in where people feel as though they must put a label on this type of mispronouncing of words, calling it “black English” or some other nonsense. If it can be labeled, then it assumes a degree of legitimacy, therefore it MUST be accepted.
Then you’ve accepted the change; the word had three syllables originally.
There’s always folk etymology, where an unfamiliar word is changed to parallel a familiar. For example, “turtle” was originally the French “tortue” which was anglicized to “tortle.” However, people started using a more familiar word – the name of a bird. The reptile supplanted the bird, so the bird was renamed “turtle dove.” “Haberdasher” and “isinglass” are also examples.
There are also usage changes: when I was a kid, calling children “kids” would get you chastised with “A kid is a baby goat.” That battle has been long lost by the prescriptionists. (I discovered that the usage has an extremely long history: “kid” was used to mean “child” in latin back in the Roman days).
Davy originally called it “alumium,” then later settled on “aluminum.” Later someone changed it to “aluminium” because it “sounded better.” I don’t give a shit so long as were still saying “platinum” and not “platinium,” “molybdenum” and not “molybdenium,” and “lanthanum” instead of “lanthanium.”
explain to me why “s” is an appropriate representation of a “z” sound. And nevermind the nonsense of using “programme,” “aubergine,” and splitting up ligatures like “encyclopaedia.”
I rather think British/Commonwealth English is way more fucked up than American English, but it’s the done thing so people cling to it.
That’s not as much a mispronunciation, as it is just not carefully enunciating when speaking informally.
The common way that I’ve always heard “forests” pronounced doesn’t enunciate the “t”. It may be there a little, but it’s not prominent, and sounds more like saying two “s” sounds in a row. Clearly enunciating the “t” in the middle is a little difficult, and if I heard anyone do it I’d think he’s trying to make some kind of pedantic point. An asshole, if you will.
I don’t even know what you’re talking about here - how else would you say those words?
Examples of mispronunciations that are becoming standard are “forte” pronounced for-tay instead of the traditional one-syllable way, and “err” pronounced like “air” instead of like “urr.” The pronunciation that used to be considered wrong is now universal, but the pedants still consider the new versions to be incorrect.
Peking –> Beijing and Bombay –> Mumbai happened because they were spelled they way they originally were due to the limits of type sets meant for English.
a couple of centuries ago, when anthropologists, linguists, or missionaries went for long stays in foreign countries, they took small printing presses with hand-set movable type that was intended for English, and had letters supplied in the frequency needed for English (lots of Es, not many Zs, etc). When the anthropologists or whomever set out to print, they found that incorporating native words and place name made them run out of some letters too soon, and have extras of others, so they used approximations. There were a lot more capital Ps than Bs, and a P is just a devoiced B, so Bejing started with a P. In early pamphlets, there may have been pronunciation guides, but people didn’t pay much attention to them.
Finally, years overdue, when quantity of letters was no longer an issue, pronunciations got corrected.
To be fair, “forte” was never exactly like “fort.” “Fort” has a closed obstruent, while “forte,” has a open one-- that is, the T is emphasized, so it kind of came out “for-tuh.” Not really two syllables, but people who didn’t realize it was a foreign word may have heard it as one, because it isn’t usual for an English word to end in an open obstruent.
Also, “err,” as “uhrr” is an Eastern thing (ie, New England). The ending of words that end in “er” is also pronounced “uhr”-- or sometimes just “uh.” But the rest of the country pronounces it differently. I think “err” has been a synonym for “air” across the mid-West for a long time.
Then why not use it in “surprise” or “enterprise”? Or do you? If you’re going to complain about UK/Commonwealth English being “more fucked up” than US English, you might want to check your dialect for consistency first.
He’s right to a extent. Of course, if the spelling mistake or mispronunciation gives rise to a misunderstanding or changes the meaning, then it’s wrong. And if you are in such a minority that it’s not listed anywhere as a usage- then you’re wrong now, but might not be wrong in the future.
*Mais non, ce n’est pas la même chose. *Speaking English with French rules sounds just as bad as speaking French with English rules (not the same as speaking with an accent).