Supreme Court poised to strike down affirmative action in Harvard and UNC cases - let's talk about the ramifications (now struck down, June 29, 2023)

Certainly that would be a much better solution, but the devil is in the details. Not only what ideas would fix it, but how could those ideas actually be implemented? It’s easy to say things like “Bring up funding of poor schools to the level of rich schools”, but the hard (impossible) part is how to actually implement those ideas. If society isn’t going to implement the ideas, then the situation isn’t likely to change.

And the problem of educational disparity for lower income students is so severe and pervasive that any solution is likely going to be on a multi-generational timeline. Not only do we have to come up with the ideas to fix it, but we have to change the mindset of society so that they get behind the implementation. It’s going to take a long time to get a community to move away from passing bond elections to fund billion-dollar HS football stadiums to passing a billion-dollar bonds for educational improvement of disadvantaged schools. That would probably take decades to change, if it would even happen at all. If colleges wait around for society to ensure economically disadvantaged kids are not educationally disadvantaged, they will probably be waiting forever.

This is of course false.

I think the problem really is that the Democrats are owned by the teacher’s unions, and they are opposed to anything but the status quo + more money. But this isn’t a money issue. The problems are more about bad teachers, bad school boards with terrible ideas, neighborhoods where crime is out of control, and schools that have lost the mission of teaching the 3 'R’s in favor of social justice indoctrination and a passive attitude towards violence in the schools.

This is all getting worse. Violence in the inner cities is getting worse because of no-bail rules and revolving door justice. Again, this is Democrats doing that, so it’s in your power to fix it.

School choice could fix the problem. Let those schools fail, and let the kids go elsewhere and let the money follow them. Republicans are all for it. This could pass across the country tomorrow if the Democrats would get on board. But again, teacher’s unions are dead set against it, and Democrats need the teacher’s unions.

It depends on the interpretation of DPRK’s proposal to not consider “size of bank account.” If you continue with gamified holistic admissions, where applicants are judged on essays they write with the help of paid consultants (or highly educated parents with some of the same skills), I agree with you. But if a slimmed down admissions department can only look at grades, a statistical measure of high school rigor, and test scores, no.

Extra-curricular activities are a proxy for wealth, since lower income high school students need to take part time jobs, or possibly care for siblings after school. And if the college looks at their part time job, or child care, as an extra-curricular – I think they now do – we are back to the gamification that wealthy students get help with.

Before us liberal Democrats pick this as the Hill to die on, I will note that Affirmative action" is not all popular with most voters.

I agree, with Dr. Deth, with two caveats.

  1. Some surveys show support for affirmative action. But you have to pin down what is meant. If elite university admissions officers make a special effort to visit high schools with a large minority and/or low income population, and recruit strong students there, I think that would poll well. But considering minority status when making the admit decision polls poorly.

  2. If the Democrats want to give up their principles, and become a party ruled by polls and focus groups, there is no reason to be a Democrat. I am on the meritocratic side here because I believe in those principles, not in order to get Biden re-elected.

Yes, that could work. I like it.

I dont mean to give up on the notion of Affirmative action, just dont make it “the hill to die on”. Like the GOP did with banning abortion- which also is hugely unpopular with the voters.

Harvard isn’t stupid. It never accepted kids who failed “on merit”. All the kids it accepted were top tier college candidates.

Again, you are categorically wrong to think there’s an objective measure of “merit” and you can just line up all the high school seniors ranked by “merit”.

Yes, on a very broad scale, some kids have achieved more than others in high school. But every single kid Harvard accepted, and the vast majority of those they rejected, are in the “achieved more” bucket.

No, I’m saying that people hire Harvard grads because Harvard has a reputation for accepting the best of the best and the coursework was hard. So if you graduated from Harvard, you were likely going to be a top employee. Secondarily, Harvard kids tend to be connected, and having connected employees can be a benefit.

But if minority Harvard grads tend to be not the best of the best and come from poor backgrounds, they will be evaluated differently. And if Harvard engages in grade inflation and course watering to get them through, that will eventually be factored into the hiring decision as well, and will hurt Harvard’s reputation in general.

Either you are saying that there’s no such thing as merit and school achievement and test scores bear no relation to your ability to graduate Harvard, or that merit can be faked or overcome by fiat. But the standard belief in achievement says that SAT scores and high school grades and achievements DO matter. So if you accept people with weaker grades and lower test scores, you should expect them to perform worse on average than the people who had to meet the higher standards.

How this is suposed to help minorities is beyond me. It seems to me what’s going on is that lots of Affirmative Action recipients will wind up with lots of college debt and then struggle to compete with their peers, perpetuating stereotypes. Then high achieving minorities get lumped in with them and are hurt as well.

This happens with sports stars as well. They may graduate from Harvard, but if employers suspect they were there for their sports ability rather than academics, they’re going to discount the degree. Doesn’t matter if you are white, black, hispanic or asian. I worked for a while with a guy making little more than minimum wage, and he was an ex-NHL player with a degree. He couldn’t get a job in his field, because he actually wasn’t very good at it. He went into sales. He wass also white. It’s not about race, it’s about trying to pass off a credential that is suspect.

By the way, I’m not talking about people who are super close in scores, because as you say merit isn’t quite that simple. If one kid scores 10 points lower on the SAT, I’d consider other factors. But if you are putting kids into Harvard who have SAT scores that would barely get them into a state university, you’re either going to have to water down their coursework, or grade them on a different curve, or give them bad marks.

According to the Heritage Foundation in 2015:

Bolding mine. That says it’s not a racial thing: Admit legacies with poor grades and they’ll drop out at the same rate as the Affirmative Action students. The difference is that the legacies are rich and will do just fine. The poor black kids dropping out at a 20% rate just get saddled with debt and unemployment. And if 50% of black law school grads are in the bottom 10% of their class, that’s going to have a very negative effect on how black lawyers are viewed, which just reinforces stereotypes.

This Pew report shows that a majority of Americans are opposed to Affirmative Action. The only defined group in the report that show more than 50% support are “Democrats”, and that’s just barely at 54%. Only 47% of blacks approve, and only 37% of Hispanics. If the people you are trying to help disapprove of the help, perhaps it would be good to listen. Considering that about 90% of African-Americans consider themselves Democrats, that’s quite shocking.

The Progressives are on the wrong side of this issue.

To end on a positive note, though… i think you’d get wide Republican support for replacing Affirmative Action with publically funded prep schools for disadvantaged students with high potential. Rather than letting them graduate with terrible educations and then try to paper over it with Affirmative Action, how about we try to get them up to speed instead? Set these schools up outside the school systems, as part of the federal Dept. of Education. Set a mandate that there will be enough of these schools in each state to take X students from each school that show promise but couldn’t pass the entrance exams because the school let them down and didn’t teach them properly.

That would not be that expensive. A few special schools in each state, maybe. The school’s job would be to take the kids and get them up to the highest standard they can before they go apply to college. I endorse bringing minorities up and correcting for their bad schools, not gimmicks to make them look equal in ability when they clearly are not.

This is no one most objective measure of merit, but some measures are much more objective than others.

At Canadian universities, including Ivy League peer (by common world rankings) University of Toronto, they use, for domestic applicants, almost exclusively, the objective measure of high school grades. Due to factors including high schools with different levels of rigor, it isn’t a perfect system. No system is perfect. But Canadian universities are using objective criteria.

At Chinese universities, including Ivy League peer Tsinghua University, they use, for domestic applicants, objective results of a national examination. Again, there are legitimate criticisms of that system, as there are with any admissions policy. But Tsinghua is not making a subjective decision. (Or they would be objective if the scores weren’t adjusted based on ethnicity, as some web pages say).

Although there are no one or two provably most objective measure, one can rank criteria from highly merit-based and objectively measurable to least. Gender, race, whether you are a Uyghur, legacy, donor relationships, recommendation letters, unverified statements about how many debate team victories you had, etc. are way over on the subjective side and IMHO should not be considered.

P.S. What about interviewing applicants? Oxford and Cambridge have faculty do that. I can see it being done is a fairly objective way, and I presume that you do that (if I correctly recall that you are a volunteer interviewer). But elite American universities have such a history of considering non-merit factors that they can’t be trusted to process opaque-to-outsiders non-numeric inputs without equal protection violations.

I used to work in admissions - in fact, as a graduate student I worked with Bill Fitzsimmons’ admissions team as interviewer. Candidates could “practice” interview with us before the official interview they’d have with an alum like puzzlegal. It was a risky thing, because a great performance would essentially be meaningless - we weren’t officially part of the admissions process. But if a student was terrible, it surely wasn’t helpful. I did meet some fairly amazing young people.

The question is - what exactly makes a Harvard education so valuable? In truth, there are hundreds of universities in the U.S. that provide a strong educational experience: excellent faculty, challenging curriculum, tremendous peers, vibrant co-curriculars. What Harvard offers is networks and reputation. A Harvard student will be immersed in an environment with sons and daughters of wealthy and connected people who can provide access to opportunities that are unique (and international). So a Harvard grad is likely to be set up for success in any field of endeavor, simply because there are probably very powerful folks in that field who also attended Harvard and will potentially give that resume a second look. Add in things like organizational affiliations and it’s even more powerful.

The other aspect is the signaling of a Harvard degree (as compared to the process). Process-wise, there are great professors and classes in a LOT of places. But the signal a Harvard degree sends to most people is one of very high quality. (Of course there are those who delight in finding Harvard grads who are jerks and jackasses.) As one of my profs said to me when I was in grad school, “Nobody is agnostic about this place.” I have found it to be true, and part of the reason for the “I went to school on the East Coast/Boston/Cambridge/ok, fine, Harvard” act. One never knows how someone is going to perceive it - if you say it straight out you’re bragging (to some).

The reality is, if you believe Harvard provides access to social mobility, it seems that those who have the least access to those networks should get an opportunity. If a student is competitive at Harvard, we know two things: 1) they have the confidence and/or support to even fathom the possibility of being admitted, and 2) they will probably be successful at a lot of great institutions. For first generation, low income kids of color, the first factor is the most challenging. They have probably never known someone who went to Harvard and it sounds as possible as going to Mars. Programs that target specific communities do a lot to promote the sense of possibility for those young people, and actually walking on campus and seeing kids from similar backgrounds and communities is equally important.

The reality is that being rejected from Harvard isn’t the end of the world for most students. (One of the SFAA students ended up at Williams College, and later said he didn’t regret not getting into Harvard.) But for those kids who have not had access to those forms of capital, attending Harvard is truly transformative for them and their family. As we say, first generation college students are almost certainly the last in their families to hold that status. Their siblings, cousins, and offsprings will be inspired to attend universities, even if they aren’t one of the elite 300 or so that have these hypercompetitive admissions processes. (Most of the 4,000 postsecondary education institutions in this country are open enrollment - show up with a high school diploma and test scores, apply, and and you’re in.

My greatest worry post-SFAA is that the students least likely to apply to elite universities (and in fact, are probably the greatest justification for their existence) will see it as evidence that they are not welcomed or wanted there. I served on graduate admissions committees for my graduate program at Harvard, and cultivating students to apply was easily one of the hardest things to do. We weren’t obsessed with test scores, but actually were more interested in what students had done, and would do after their degree. Only when we brought a critical mass of underrepresented students of color (hosted by current students of color) did we move the sense of possibilities in many folks’ minds.

Great institutions know that in some disciplines and fields, test scores are very important. But that’s not a universal rule. Nobody who works in admissions would advocate making decisions purely by test scores. And even seemingly objective measures like GPA are skewed by factors like access to prep courses, knowing how to navigate university processes (appealing grades, advocating [successfully] for grade bumps, knowing how and when to drop a course, building mentoring relationships with faculty), and access to resources (think of a student working 30 hours a week and living off-campus compared to one who works 10 hours a week in a desk job or in a lab related to their interest, tied to their coursework, who lives on campus or very close).

I’ve had students with 4.0s and 3.2s apply to grad programs, and in some cases, the 3.2 student is the one who blows me away because they’re able to make those grades with the additional burden of working, caring for family members, and doing volunteer work. Whereas sometimes the 4.0 student has a surfeit of resources that makes their achievement more likely. And don’t get me started on the immorality of unpaid internships, which provides access and opportunity to students who can afford to work for free.

Sounds like you’re describing summerbridge programs that often work with students from underresourced schools as they matriculate to college. Many of these programs have been eliminated with the anti-DEI legislation in Republican-led states. The other problem is school quality is a lagging indicator. Usually those schools are low performing because of inadequate housing, health care, employment, safety, etc. and with the elimination of many of the social safety nets, the schools are now responsible for many things schools aren’t designed to do. Like almost 30 million kids depending of schools to provide their lunch. Until we actually take a systems-level approach to closing health, employment, housing, and wealth gaps, we’re probably going to have to access band-aid approaches to societal inequity.

And of course, even if we do all of these things with zeal, it’s not going to change overnight. How do we address the kids who didn’t have access to great education while we fix it?

My university received 60,000 applications last year. I agree interviews by trained and knowledgable adults would be wonderfully helpful, but the training, time commitment, and interrater reliability challenges makes it fairly impractical. Faculty (who are usually on 9 month contracts, publishing, writing grants, and researching the other 3 months) are subject to the same biases as everyone else and frankly, I can see as many willing to interview as those who would be opposed. (A lot of honors programs and performance fields do interview applicants at a certain stage.)

Except probably for Law School, where there is mismatch causing lower minority bar pass rates, I think the issues for graduate admissions are different. If a biology PhD program can’t look at an undergraduate capstone paper for evidence of research creativity, that would hurt advance of knowledge, which is the main justification for having a research university.

I wish John Roberts (and, dare I say, Clarence Thomas) could be here to see how impossibly interwound are racial preference and legacy/donor/celebrity admissions preferences. Without preferences, applicants, rich and poor, who wouldn’t make it into Harvard with objective transparent admissions, would find themselves together, making higher grades, at the likes of UNC Chapel Hill.

Without so many rich kids around, maybe more Harvard/Yale graduates would become school teachers using evidence-based curricula to prepare the next generation for success, and fewer would go into management consulting. It’s possible that you would read this as less social mobility – although, given your screen name, maybe not! Either way, I don’t think how much money a school’s B.A.'s make is a measure of it’s contribution to it’s students, or society.

I am saying neither of those. I am saying that above some threshold, differences in grades and test scores aren’t very meaningful, and other measures (teacher recommendations, essays, what adversities students might have overcome) differentiate better than a couple points on the math SAT.

When Harvard required SAT scores, they never took kids with crappy scores. They never take kids with crappy grades. They absolutely used those objective measures: as a first cut. And then, among the kids who passed that first cut, they looked at other factors.

Mismatch theory is fairly controversial and Sander’s analyses have been questioned, particularly in regard to causality. There’s a really good article here in SSRN, and a more accessible (and older) critique by William Kidder in LARB here.

And certainly the connections you describe are happening at universities across the country. That’s why I found the Varsity Blues scandal so puzzling. Really wealthy folks don’t need to send their kids to USC. There are lots of schools where their kids will be admitted and do just fine, and they can hang out and cheer for USC during football season. One of my mentors attended a university in upstate New York - an institution I’d never heard of - and it turns out a number of graduates worked in the Clinton administration, entertainment law, and other impressive fields. That institution would have accepted a wealthy Hollywood kid, I’m sure.

I actually know a few Harvard educated teachers (more of them in independent schools). In truth, Harvard isn’t particularly good at social mobility, and the schools that do the best job aren’t even being discussed - see here.

Harvard’s a fine school, but most of the education that transforms lives is happening at two-year colleges and urban open access universities.

As I opined previously, never underestimate the power of ego. Many of us can do without Harvard. But that doesn’t mean we’re super stoked on the University of Houston (a perfectly fine school with modest tuition), either.

When it comes to wealthy kids, I think it’s part of building up an air of legitimacy around one’s self. A degree from the right school can make it easier to imagine oneself as just being so much cream that just coincidentally was already born on top. The “proof” of that is the success (as indicated by degree) conferred by a “meritocratic” institution.

Meritocracy is overrated. Except as an ego booster.

I don’t know why your not talking about them, because they’re the relevant ones for Harvard’s undergraduate program.

Nobody doubts that a program can be run to set up students for failure. Joey McAlumnison who got a D in Algebra 2 is probably going to struggle to pass MIT’s freshman curriculum. But unless you can show us Harvard’s “barely get into state university “ scores, coursework watering, or different grade curves, your series of “if…” is irrelevant.

I thought you were clear. I wonder if that’s a similar approach all accredited schools take (acknowledging there is no single, exactly-the-same policy).

IOW, a competitive university (as opposed to highly or most-competitive, the categories I recall when I was researching colleges back in the dark ages) would have a first cut that would ensure a student would thrive, and then evaluate after that for other factors. Maybe not 1600 SATs and 4.0, but something solid.

Graduation rates are a big deal, right? I’m speculating, but ISTM that most respected universities would likewise not want to create a filter that let in throngs of unqualified students.

There are (or at least were) schools with large (>20%) graduation rate disparities. It can be a little tricky because transfers out count against your rate, even if it’s from a satellite school to a flagship. But while that makes comparing overall rates between some schools tricky, I don’t know that it matters when looking at rate disparities within the school.