Supreme court mixed decision on Affirmative Action

Supreme Court rules on U of Michigan AA case

The Supreme court ruled against the Undergrad program of AA at U of M, in which 20 pts are added to the application “scores” of 3 minority groups (Blacks, Hispanics, Native Americans) but let stand the Law school system, which takes race into account, but not on a numerical basis by adding points.

This has been a common topic in the forum, but the new SCotUS decision gives some interesting food for thought.

  1. How is “making race one factor”, as in the law school, actually different from adding points to the applications of minority studients? According to the cite, above, the Law School actually seems to be promoting a quota system, which the SCotUS has already ruled to be unconstitional:

But this obviously wasn’t enough of an issue to get a majority to rule against the case. Maybe it’s just the scientist in me, but adding points seems to be a clean, simple way of ensuring a “diverse” student body, if that is the goal. And it’s essentially no different than using some qualitative criteria. (I’m personally opposed to both methods, but I don’t really see the difference.)

  1. Would the SCotUS decision have been different if the u-grad system used, say, 5 pts (out of a total 150) for minority students instead of 20?

Thoughts about what this new decision means?

I am pretty puzzled, myself, because as I understand the law school system, they really are aiming for a particular number or percentage. A “critical mass,” in their own words.

The undergrad system, with which I am much more familiar, has a set “system” for awarding points, but the end result in terms of numbers or %age of the class which is non-white is extremely variable year to year, depending on the strength of the applicant pool and the strength and numbers of the underrepresented minority pool. If the UG system was meant to get a set number (or a “quota”) they’d have to change the formula and # of “bonus points” each year. Which they don’t so.

So overall, the law school seems more quota-like, to me. And we all know the q-word is a dirty one. For that reason, I thought the law school was where we were more vulnerable.

I guess this explains why I didn’t get the call to join the legal team.

Law school opinion.

Undergrad opinion.

I have not read them yet, but hope to do so this evening.

Good gosh almighty – what is “critical mass?” At least you can get some sort of idea regarding the extent of the abuses under a numerical quota. Are we devolving into another type of “separate but equal” standard?

Minty:

Thanks for the cites. I’ll take a look and see if the add more clarity.

from the court decision:

Interesting. A theory of justice hat varies over as short a time period as 25 yrs. But this is a ticking bomb for supporters of AA. Clearly, the “25 years” is meant to be an esitmate, and it might seem a long ways away, but imagine if that claim had been made in 1978 (25 yrs ago, and cooncidentally, almost the exact time frame as the Bakke decision).

My impression is that the court is saying that it’s okay if you are sloppy and vague about what you are doing, but bad if you are specific about it. Am I way off in this impression? If it’s wrong to do it systematically, how can it be wrong to do it unsystematically, but to the same basic effect?

People have been hoping for a clear decision on this ever since Bakke, and this was anything but a clear decision.

I haven’t fully thought this one out, but it seems that the Court agrees with the idea that methodically favoring candidates based on race is not right (perhaps since any specific method might be too arbitrary or unfair?..), but the Court put “value” (my term) to the idea of racial favoritism for the purpose of racial diversity.

Perhaps the Court thought affirmative action to be wrong, but didn’t want to be the Court to say so difinitively? It does seem like O’Connor wanted to hedge her decision in a way to be fair, yet not rock her political party’s boat…

In all, it seems to me that the Court made a very wishy-washy decision and left open the possibility, if not the inevitability, of the need for a future affirmative action case to clarify what exactly the court feels is a correct usage of racial preference.

What is the deal here? I need to understand the “quota” that is being discussed.

Correct me if I’m way off base here!
For example purposes:
National dispersing by race:
Caucasian: 60 %
African-American: 15 %
Hispanic: 10 %
Asian: 10 %
Other: 5 %

Does the enrollment have to match population represnted above or do the 5 groups get 20% each?

What is the deal here? I need to understand the “quota” that is being discussed.

Correct me if I’m way off base here!
For example purposes:
National dispersing by race:
Caucasian: 60 %
African-American: 15 %
Hispanic: 10 %
Asian: 10 %
Other: 5 %

Does the enrollment have to match population represented above or do the 5 groups get 20% each?

frixxx, as I understand it, U-M has not stated a goal that it wants to match the proportions each group represents according to a state or national census. White and asians are overrepresented in the present campus makeup, while other groups are underrepresented. And that’s true even with the affirmative action programs in place.

They want, um, enough. Enough so that classrooms and learning-living communities are at least somewhat multiethnic. I don’t think they can put a number on that, although the law school, I guess, tried to.

I haven’t read the rulings themselves, but exactly how different from Bakke is this new “landmark” ruling.

Sounds about as original as American Pie 2.

I wrote this on another forum:

*Skimming through the opinions, I see some interesting things.

1st, the main reason why O’Conner backs the law school policy, but NOT the undergrad’s policy is because of ‘individualized review of applicants’. Under the law school’s application policy, every applicant is reviewed individually and race might be a boost to his application. Diversity qualifications are considered on a case-by-case basis. In the undergrad case, it is simply 20 points for being an underrepresented minority. There is little, if any, individualized review of applicants under this system. Diversity qualifications are applied automatically to everyone that falls under the catagory in undergrad.

Therefore the undergrad’s policy is NOT narrowly tailored to the compelling governmental interest in diversity (Grutter, ie the law school case, held that diversity is a compelling interest), while the law school’s is (because it is individualized and may not always apply).

Another consideration (and one that sways Rehnquist as well) is that while race counts for 20 points, other ‘diversity’ classifications such as leadership or art talent, etc. only can account for, at most, 5 points. So race counts FOUR times more than the maximum non-minority talented individual can recieve as a boost (even if he is the next Beethoven or Monet).*

The question is why is the different than Bakke? Well that decision was a 4-4-1, and there has been disagreement as to what that court actually decided. Powell’s opinion (the 1) has been held up, but future appeals courts have said that only the decision is that which is binding (the narrowest agreement among five).

THIS decision says, no, Powell’s decision should be precedent (more or less). It also definitely states (in Grutter that diversity is a compelling interest, you simply cannot make it a definte boost. It can be a minor boost, but only upon individual review of the application. One of the problems was how big a boost UM undergrad gave for race. It limits how much of a bump can be given, and says it can only be given under invidualized review.

So it can bump a black guy over a white guy who are close on the waiting list or who are on the edge of getting denied, but can’t move a black guy over a bunch of others to get onto the waiting list (from the denied list), or to get onto the accepted list (from the waiting list). That’s basically, more or less, what it is saying. Small jumps ok, big jumps not ok.

My impression is that the Court’s decision on Affirmative action said a little is OK, but a lot is too much. This decision is likely to lead to onging litigation trying to determine whether various individual plans are “a little” or “a lot” of preference.

Here’s a wonderful

[quote from an 1865 Frederick Douglass address]
(http://www.townhall.com/columnists/georgewill/gw20030623.shtml):

I certainly agree with that POV as regards Jews. I feel grateful that my family had change to find their way in American society without being burdened by “pro-Jewish” affirmative action.

Correction:

I feel grateful that my family had a chance to find their way in American society without being burdened by “pro-Jewish” affirmative action.

That’s right. The “holding” in that case was Powell’s “Alone on My Island” Ruling/Dissent/Concurrence.

Good call.

Has anyone got to the cases themselves? Do they overrule or distinguish Hopwood (from the 5th Circuit)?

I don’t remember how absolute Hopwood was.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by december *
**My impression is that the Court’s decision on Affirmative action said a little is OK, but a lot is too much. This decision is likely to lead to onging litigation trying to determine whether various individual plans are “a little” or “a lot” of preference.

Here’s a wonderful

** why didn’t you include the link? I suppose because the speech in total didn’t support you typical revision view of the world.WHAT THE BLACK MAN WANTS

No, I simply didn’t have the link to the original speech, but merely to the quoted excerpt. Thanks for the link to the entire speech.

I don’t see where the excerpt that you quoted is so different from the briefer excerpt that I quoted. Apparently your interpretation is different from mine.

er… the speech pretty much exactly says what december’s snippet said. Which part of “What I ask for the Negro is not benevolence, not pity, not sympathy, but simply justice.” did you not follow?
Jeff

It would appear to overturn Hopwood since the 5th Circuit simply said that race-conscious admissions at the University of Texas law school themselves were unconstitutional.

http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/94/94-50569-cv0.htm]http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/9...4-50569-cv0.htm