Supreme Court poised to strike down affirmative action in Harvard and UNC cases - let's talk about the ramifications (now struck down, June 29, 2023)

Great Debates
141

I suppose what I’m pointing to is the fact that all of that is a sort of silly charade that the Supreme Court demanded we all engage in.

The truth is that if you define quota as “an acceptable threshold,” of course there are quotas. It is true you can sort of Zeno’s paradox yourself into oblivion about what the number is, and how you know you’re diverse or need to be more diverse and why is 1,099 bad but 1,100 good; no matter what the answer is, you want more than you have now of person with attributes XYZ.

It is true that there were cases that killed AA by less than a thousand cuts, but if we’re just looking at this very big picture in terms of what AA really is, the answer is that the number of, for example, black students at let’s say the University of Alabama was too low, and the number needed was “more.” No matter how you slice and dice and interpolate data and double-blind your admissions process, the before and after that you’re looking at is “number of black students,” and if it doesn’t go up you didn’t succeed.

142

So how does it do any good for a kid to get into a school where they will be ‘destroyed’?

Surely the minimum requirement for any admission be that the student has the capacity to do the work required, without lowered standards, to get a degree. Anything else is doing a huge disservice to the student, even if it makes Harvard feel better about itself for allowing in a kid who has no chance of success.

Instead, the colleges are dropping entrance exams, lowering standards, creating garbage degree programs for warm bodies, etc. That will serve no one well, and the affected students will be hurt most severely.

143

I don’t think you read my post. The idea that people who would get destroyed should get to go to Harvard is the opposite of what I was saying.

144

It’s a good deal for those kids. Not so much for ordinary citizens, who see certain elite professions dominated by graduates of these private institutions, where entry is determined by an arbitrary and opaque admission system. No doubt much of this success is because they accept the sort of people who are bound to go far, but the point of going is to get a boost, in reputation and/or networking, and it seems to work.

145

Here is something I just came across with surprisingly (to me) strong evidence of hurt regarding law school AA, with fewer minority students passing the bar and becoming lawyers:

Law School Mismatch

146

Or what about the best woman. My understanding is that all else being equal women vastly out perform men in terms of academics and testing. Would Sam be happy if it turned out that only 20% of Harvard admitees were men?

It isn’t that people “go to Harvard” for diversity, its that having a diverse student body improves the educational experience, something which the Harvard administration would want. People also don’t go to Harvard for the food, but that doesn’t mean that you don’t need cafeterias.

The problem with this is the same problem with people who say “I don’t see race” and feels that that solves the problem. Just like with rural vs Urban, rich vs poor, people who have lived their life as a particular race have a unique experience and perspective that is different from those that didn’t. A poor rural black person from the same school with the same grades and extra curriculars as a poor rural white person will still have a different perspective on a whole host of issues. Exposure to that perspective in the formative years of a University setting is important in building an informed view of the world.

147

Women substantially outnumber men in overall college admissions. But curiously, not at Harvard, where it’s roughly 1:1. They claim they can maintain that ratio due to having a surplus of qualified applicants:

The trend may be breaking in the past couple of years. Still, one wonders if there’s still some male-biased affirmative action going on. Could be worth a lawsuit, given the recent ruling.

148

Anecdotally, I was listening to an episode of 1A on NPR the the guest they had stated unequivocally that when deciding admissions, steps were definitely taken to try to achieve gender balance, and without accounting for that the student body would be severely unbalanced with regard to gender.

ETA: If you go to my link and click on the listen button, the point at which they discuss gender bias is at the 31 minute point.

149

Yes, they have emotionally more qualified applicants than they have room to accept.

150

I assume you meant to say something like “enormously” instead of “emotionally” there.

Regardless, it’s a bad argument on their part. A college can always lower their standards until they have a large enough pool of qualified applicants.

But if they’re consistently accepting male applicants over more qualified female ones just to maintain the 1:1 ratio, then they’re possibly engaging in illegal discrimination.

151

Yes, enormously.

And no, i don’t think it’s possible to unambiguously tank candidates.

152

Lots of ambiguous behavior will still show up in the statistics. You may not be able to prove any one particular case, but you can see an overall pattern.

I’m not saying it’s certain Harvard is putting their thumb on the scale to hit a 1:1 ratio. But the numbers are suggestive.

153

Jack Welch’s GE’s reliable predictable growth rates to 3 sigfigs were lauded as pure top management genius. Until they were recognized for the widespread fakery they had always been and had actually always been known to have been.

Sometimes useful fictions remain useful long after substantially everyone knows the emperor’s privates are on display.

154

Just why do you think I’d be unhappy? Am I being judged again?

Let me be clear: So long as everyone is admitted based on an evaluation process that is blind to immutable characteristics like race and gender and focuses on a candidate’s ability to handle the material, I don’t care if Harvard becomes 100% white, black, Asian, Male, Female, or really smart dolphin. Because none of that other stuff matters.

Every person is an individual with their own life experiences. Enforcing a group identity on individuals based on immutable characteristics is racist and wrong, whether it’s white people discriminating against Black people, or Black people discriminating against Asians, or whatever.

It is okay to consider ethnic groups and different genders when looking at population dynamics and systemic problems and such, but once you get down to the level of an individual none of that matters because within-group variation is far greater than between-group variation.

That is the essence of real anti-racist thinking - the understanding that group characteristics like race and gender are not dispositive at the individual level, and should not be used to evaluate them.

If you think you know something about someone after being told their race and nothing else, you are a racist. If you make judgments about individuals knowing nothing about them other than their gender, you are a sexist. And it doesn’t matter if you think you are ‘punching up’ or correcting historical wrongs. You don’t get a pass on racism.

This is the difference between progressives and the rest of us. You seem to think everyone cares deeply about the exact racial and gender mixes everywhere, except that everyone else is racist and sexist and wants the opposite mix of what you want. Which is why I guess you assumed I would be upset if a fair process wound up selecting only 20% males.

If I saw such a skewed ratio I might look to see if the selection process was biased. If it wasn’t, and I cared about the education of men, I’d look into why they weren’t competitive and try to do something about it. It would never occur to me to force colleges to accept more men if thry couldn’t mert standards, then water down their courses or ease up on grading men to get them to graduate. Because that doesn’t fix anything - it would just send a bunch of unprepared men out into the world where they wouldn’t compete as well as others and perpetuate stereotypes about how men are not as good as women.

But some of us really, really don’t care. Your skin color or gender or LGBTQ status is of no interest to me. I will evaluate you on your ability to do the job or pass the courses. In personal life I will evaluate you based on your behaviour, and assume nothing without evidence. Full stop.

And if 80% of Harvard grads are women after a fair selection and grading process, I welcome our new female overlords. They earned it.

155

I’m kicking myself for not having included this in my earlier elite-college-admissions-office bashing.

An unnoticed result of the decline of men in college: It’s harder for women to get in

The idea that discriminating against women might be totally illegal, not to mention plain wrong, seems to barely cross their minds.

156

Because I thought that you might recognize that a heavily skewed student body might not make the best college environment. I guess I was wrong. From the colleges’ point of view it isn’t about righting some historical wrong (although that’s not a bad thing), its about providing the best college experience for all of their students that do attend regardless of race or gender.

Congratulations you don’t see race, bully of you. Marie Antoinette didn’t see poverty. Yes, if all I know about a person is that he is black I would hazard a guess that he has experienced anti-black racism, if I was told he was white I would hazard a guess that he has not. Yes its nice that you don’t have to spend all of your time thinking about race. That is because the world in which you (and I for that matter) live is adapted to our needs.

We are fish swimming blissfully in the sea wondering why all of those mammals floating around seem to are so obsessed with breathing. And unless those fish are actually put a position where they regularly interact with mammals they will continue to think that they are complaining for no good reason.

So much wrong is packed into this sentence. The people who are forcing the colleges to do things are the supreme court. They want to provide the best educational environment for all of their students which includes exposure to differing perspectives including those that come from being of a different race. They can do this without having to dampen their standards or water down their courses. There a oodles of qualified applicantants of all sorts applying the difference is that when they have 1000 slots and 1000 white and Asian students all of whom have above a 4.7GPA and 1600 SAT scores, they can’t decide to admit only 970 of them but also include 30 black students with a 4.6GPA and 1550 SAT, so as to provide those 970 white students a more enriching student experience.

157

Good point, maybe. When the Supreme Court ruled in favor of AA previously, they said that the legitimate purpose was not to help minorities (implausible due to mismatch), but to give those white students the benefits of hanging with students of color.

Googling I find that, unlike some other Ivy League schools, Harvard does not have any segregated dormitory for students of color. So I guess there is some cross-cultural enrichment going on in their student housing. But they do have an African and African American Studies major. I’m fine with area studies personally. But, then, I think the reason to admit is to maximally benefit individual students, not the white masses. If it is instead vital to have an AA improving the white college experience – which I do NOT believe – having a major that will attract few whites would detract.

And what about the white students at UNC? Shouldn’t they be getting the enrichment of seeing Black students performing at the same academic level as those of their own color, something not happening because super-elite schools like Harvard are siphoning off minority students who would have met the non-preference UNC admissions standard?

Googling, one good thing I am seeing about UNC Chapel Hill (their flagship campus) is a 60/40 female/male split. This gives some hope they know that discriminating by gender is wrong. While I am totally against reverse discrimination, the Ivy League, and similar super-elites, are at fault in making it harder for the UNC’s to avoid the temptation of ethnic discrimination.

158

Having a a diverse student body does benefit all individual students regardless of color, that was my point. I focused on the white students to emphasize that AA is not a zero sum game where minorities students benefit and majority students suffer.

Are you sure? Or could it be that if they didn’t select to balance gender the ratio would be 70/30 or worse?

Why should Harvard admissions concern itself with what is going on at UNC. What is happening is that Harvard is trying to create the best learning environment for their students and the Supreme court is saying they can’t.

159

I don’t think that’s remotely close to what I was saying.

I was saying that, from a practical point of view, as race doesn’t really mean anything, there’s no scientific way to group people into races. Most countries don’t get into it – they just do a census of what race people claim to be, and leave it at that. TBH I don’t know how it works with AA. Is the potential for shame the only thing to prevent people miscategorizing themselves? Or the fact that it needs to be consistent with declarations made at other times for other purposes (or declarations made by your parents)?

In terms of what you’re saying about the racial experience, I agree. And FYI I am mixed black carribbean myself. But I think in terms of academic entry requirements, I maintain that the point is that we factor in how deprived a person’s background has been, with a person who has come from poverty to attain level X implying that they have tremendous potential. Race is only a proxy for figuring out that deprivation, and an imperfect one as I just alluded.

160

There are still all-women colleges, and all-boy high schools, so I’m dubious that it’s totally illegal.

And people do more at college than sit in lecture halls. The sex ratio matters. It matters in the discussions about books, it matters for dating, heck, it matters for the availability of bathrooms in many cases.

I seriously considered attending MIT, but its sex ratio (then about 20% female) was a mark against it. I was recruited by Caltech, but didn’t apply because with the percent of women in the single digits, i didn’t want to go there to be a freak.