In respect to the Straight Dope’s motto - Fighting Ignorance - in one respect we are not very good at achieving that. The vast majority of Dopers are liberal and intelligent, and we usually do not hear from people who have what would think are extreme views.
When we discuss the perceived intolerance of Sharia law and extreme Muslims, when we abhor the actions of paedophiles, when we condemn the actions of tyrants like Mugabe, Pol Pt, Idi Amin et al, we all (probably rightly) unite in condemming them.
For example:
I’d like to hear from a militant Islamic cleric telling me why he’s right to believe in the murder of people he doesn’t agree with and why I’m wrong. I’d like a member of the crowd in Khartoum calling for the death of the English teacher to convince me that his view is the right one.
I’d like to learn from a paedophile why he either can’t or won’t prevent himself from carrying out actions that most of the world deplores.
Because I genuinely don’t understand: I’m ignorant of the thought processes, the reasoning and the rationale behind their thoughts and actions. I want my ignorance fought - not just the majority of the SD supporting and confirming my own views.
Very admirable. I’d like to understand all those people better too, but I think we’ll grow old and gray (I’m already mostly there) waiting for any kind of solid, well-reasoned, convincing argument from a religious fanatic willing to kill people. We’d have better luck with the pedophile.
But that’s just my point! I want to discuss and learn in a civilised atmosphere. Are you saying that that the SD discourages people from expressing views that you don’t agree with?
Are are you saying that people with extremist views can’t discuss them civily? That may be the case; but surely someone with those beliefs is capable of saying what they think without causing a storm?
(No, I’m not being naive: I wouldn’t be surprised if they couldn’t. But I’m hoping).
No, he/she is saying that some people aren’t civilized. And some people don’t discuss, either. They lecture, insult, and threaten, but they don’t discuss. Guys who believe in killing unbelievers tend to be disinterested in a fair debate; that’s kind of the point.
Generally, no. They tend to restrict themselves to people who agree with them, or people they can shout down.
Of course not. I mean, a pedophile ? They’d cause a storm just by showing up and posting soup recipes in Cafe Society ( if it was known what they were ), much less trying to defend what they do.
Think about it for just a minute. If someone posted “I like to rape babies, here’s why” not only would they be the target of extreme vitriol but they would be BANNED quicker than you can shake a stick.
When I see a monkey flinging poo on a street corner I don’t wonder why it is doing it, I just want it to stop. That is not to say that I may not want to study the phenomena in an academic or professional environment just that I don’t want him doing it in my living room on my time off.
Sure this should be, and is, a place where controversial views should be explored, but the things you want to discuss are the social equivalent of nuclear material. As such they must be discussed or studied in a controlled environment. We have had many crazy threads, even a guy who liked to store his semen and wondered why it apparently turned orange, he was not banned.
But when a person says that blacks should be killed or that jews should be, or that god told them to blow up a plane, they are not making rational arguments. Sure many of them can espouse their views in a civil manner, David Duke was slicker than snake snot when he wanted to be, that does not mean I would give a flying fuck about anything he had to say. Nor would I want to argue with him, I am certainly not going to change his mind nor am I going to understand his point of view and when I give up or walk away in disgust or beat the living shit out of him, he will think he has had some kind of victory.
Fair point.
I would add that it’s easy to find message boards where people are absolutely convinced of things and nothing you can do will change their belief, be it religion, no Moon landings or dowsing.
It’s hard to find a board like this one.
If you believe that your God has commanded you to do something and punish others who blaspheme, it’s all quite ‘logical’ (even though I don’t agree with it).
After all, the Bible has Abraham prepared to sacrifice his son on an altar and God slaughtering an entire generation of Egyptian children. Christians don’t say God was evil to do these things.
I hear and understand everything that all of you are saying. And, as I said before, I agree with you all. We all (mostly) have the same beliefs and moral code. I suppose I should have called this thread, ‘The dying whimpers of an optimist.’
They may be extremists, but I don’t want to believe that they can’t reasonably justify their actions. It means that the world must a very sad place.
I also want to make it clear that I think like the rest of you; and that’s the problem. If someone else had posted this, I’d be responding like the rest of you. But a core belief of mine is to understand what I don’t agree with. I’m an atheist, but I’m want to know about others religous beliefs, for example. Because by being wiser, I think I’m better.
I have, obviously chosen the most contentious issues I could think of. But these *are *the issues we need the most understanding of.
But you’re speaking for them. That is exactly what we believe they would say. Don’t you want to at least hear their attempts at justifying it? It may very well be what they would say - but I want to hear *them *say it, not you. Because you’re saying what I also think they would say - which takes us all back to my OP…
I’m guessing I am a little older than you. I have been to the middle east, I have taken college courses in religious studies, sociology and psychology so I guess I don’t need to see it on a message board. I am not suggesting you take my word for anything nor am I suggesting I have a perfect understanding of anything. What I am suggesting is that you should travel, talk to people, take classes not rely on this message board for understanding the world. When you do those things and come back in a decade or two you probably won’t want to see the crazy people post their craziness either.
Do we? Or do we just need them to stop, because they’re harming people? When my two year old is smacking the cat on the nose, I’m not interested in her attempts at explanation. There is nothing that can justify smacking the cat on the nose - not that the cat hit her first, not that there’s a spider on her nose, nothing, nothing at all. So my asking for an explanation is both a waste of time and a misleading suggestion that there might be an acceptable explanation for an unacceptable act. And if there are a bunch of other kids watching our exchange, they might accept her rationalization and decide that smacking cats on the nose is sometimes okay, or might waste more of my time adding their own half-baked justifications for an unjustifiable act.
Now, if I was leading the Middle East Peace Summit, then it might behoove me to find out what people claim as their motivations and see if their needs can be met another way. Likewise, if I was a psychologist treating pedophiles, it might help to know what this particular patient feels out of control, so I can suggest modifications to his behavior that address what he thinks his needs are.
But in any community setting, one has to weigh the good of the many against the wants of the one. And, generally speaking, allowing unfettered expression of socially unacceptable thinking leads to much discontent. It’s been attempted before - I know there was at least one thread that was essentially an “Ask the pedophile” thread, but what ended up happening was that people’s outrage leaked over into other threads, and it became impossible to enjoy the place. Dozens of threads became tainted with pedophile hijacks and accusations, to the point that it was useless saying, “Well, if you don’t want to read about it, don’t open the thread,” because it was everywhere.
While at the time my inner libertarian freedom fighter was a bit pissed that the poster was squashed and banned, in hindsight I understand why it was done. I’m sure the moderator’s emailboxes were overflowing with bile, and they felt that had to to something.
I’m beginning to feel hopelessly patronised. I really take issue with your assumptions and tone. I am in my fifties. I have travelled to and stayed in Iran amongst many other countries, and talked to people in those countries. I am now a member of this message board, and was hoping to have an intelligent debate about what I see as an important issue. But if I’ve misunderstood the purpose of this board and forum, I’m sure you’ll correct me.
I have just read WhyNot’s post and am becoming thoroughly disheartened. Are you now saying that not only can we not expect extremists to rationalise, but that Straight Dopers are unable to keep their cool when presented with what they will undoubtedly see as provocation - even if it really is intended to increase our understanding? What has happened to debate: if the Straight Dope can’t support it, who can?
I am sorry if I seem naive and childish. May be I am.
The years I’ve spent on this message board have taught me that if we let in people with extremist’s views they will preach and condemn, not debate. They will use this forum as a means to advertise their views and appear legitimate.
what is the is the important issue you wish to discuss? Why we don’t allow pedophiles to post?
I have only tried to respond to your posts in a civil manner, granted I made a faulty assumption and I have now apologized. If disagreeing with you is unacceptable then I guess we are done here.
Those with extremist views have been in here from time to time. Occasionally they start out actually discussing their views. But it has never (in my experience at least) failed that they soon begin “shouting” and flaming, to be directed to the Pit, still ending up being banned for failure to abide by Board rules. Sometimes that has been a shame, because when could control their tempers it was indeed useful to have a chance to hear how they think. Some would occasionally have moments of discussions. No, I won’t name names.
The “invasion” refererred to was the result of a cross-board “invite” by sorts of a member and resulted in huge numbers of guest posters posting a variety of vitriol with little discussion or light shed for all the flames.
**Askeptic **- thank you for your apologies. To answer your question: ‘what is the is the important issue you wish to discuss?’ - it is that I want to increase my understanding of the issues that, because of my beliefs and moral code, I can’t understand. Don’t you?
OK - being realistic, maybe ‘extremists’ can’t or won’t use this board to do anything but rant - maybe there I was being naive, but I still want to fight my ignorance on this board.
I have talked to people of various faiths in the middle east, and heard what they have to say. Now I want to continue that discussion here. But it seems overwhelmingly to be a vain hope.
