Sustainable vs Factory Farming

Great Debates
1

My interest in this is simple. I have moved back to the family farm in central Alberta. We have 50 acres, I want to be self-sustaining, cost-effective, environmentally responsible, and leave something that can be “doable” for my future grandkids.

I have “heritage” chickens and turkeys. I chose them because they still retain the ability to breed and nurture their young. I am concentrating on “heirloom” produce, mainly because I don’t want the “old” strains to die out. I am looking to add more livestock this year and I will continue to focus on the “heritage” breeds.

So, my question is, using my farm as a model, wave of the future, or just a fad?

wiki definitions

Sustainable Agriculture

Factory Farming

2

My very limited understanding is that Sustainable Farming is a great idea on a small scale. You can build and work a Sustainable Farm to feed you and your family, and probably have some left over to bring to the farmer’s market on Saturday. What Sustainable Farming does not do so well is large scale feeding of the nation. Because heirlooms don’t travel as well as plastic tomatoes, because you have more loss to pests and infections, and because your yield is less per acre with organic and natural fertilizers, the cost of your product will be higher and it can’t realistically provide for people across the country. So for Sustainable Farming to become the way we all eat, most of us, or many of us, are going to have to quit working at Starbuck’s and Macy*s and in hospitals and power plants, and we’re going to have to become a nation of farmers again. And we’ll go back to food being a huge part of the household budget, where people will literally have to work to “put bread on the table” again.

But for you? Awesome! Great! Let me know if you have an extra turkey to sell at Thanksgiving, 'cause I’ve lost contact with my sustainable organic free-range small-scale happy turkeys guy, and those were the yummiest birds evah! :smiley:

3

I think of it as a niche much the same way I think of organic farming. I don’t see it as the wave of the future because I don’t believe sustainable agriculture can provide the market with what it needs. I suppose the market could change at some point in the future though. Now when I say niche I don’t mean that in a bad way. There are people who are willing to pay a premium for such a thing. Check out Polyface Farms at some point.

Marc

4

I think that sustainable farming has lasted long enough that it is certainly not just a fad. As for how much it will grow in the future, obviously I can’t say and neither can anyone else. My family first got into sustainable farming and organic farming about ten years ago. At the time, while we hoped the trends would gradually expand, nobody imagined that they would enter the mainstream so quickly. The idea that I’d now be able to buy organic, locally grown produced at cheapo supermarkets in rural Virginia would have seemed impossible back them.

5

Having no farming experience, I think diversification is the key. Having the good stuff for your family and local sales plus the plastic vegetables and rubber chickens to sell on the open market to build some sort of cushion to help you through the years of drought and locust.

6

As to whether or not sustainable farming is doable, I would like to toss into the conversation the organization “Slow Food” This group advocates buying local fresh produce. If more of us did this, maybe sustainable vs factory would be more realistic.

Whynot, I do have turkeys available! I actually took one down to Charlotte with me for Christmas, they really are awesome.
McGibon, I also raise free range/ pastured poultry. Joel Salatin’s book “Pastured Poultry Profits” is my bible!

Eh?

7

FarmerChick what I was trying to say is along with the heirloom’hertiage foods, it may be a good idea to also grow the mass marketed foods. Perhaps dividing your 50 acres up into 25 acres dedicated to heirloom foods and the other 25 to the mass marketed foods.

8

Farming?! That is soooo five minutes ago! The wave of the ecosustainable future is hydroponics and vat-grown meat!

No, really.

9

I think there is often some confusion over the word “sustainable”. If you think about it, you will see that there is no particular emphasis on what kind of farming it means, as in “conventional” vs “organic”. What “sustainable” means is just that: can this method of farming be sustained over a long period of time?

The problem or rather, one of the problems, with most “conventional” crop farming is that it is NOT sustainable, in that it destroys the fertility of the soil, usually through salination due to irrigation, or destruction of “organic” materials in the soil. (My use of the word “organic” in that sentence has nothing to do with what people think of as “organic farming”, but rather with the actual structure/content of the soil.) Plants need certain chemicals to grow, but merely adding the “required” chemicals in the “recommended” amounts is not enough to maintain soil fertility. And it certainly doesn’t increase it. There are ways to deal with these issues without the sudden transformation of all conventional agriculture to “organic”, but so far agribusiness has preferred to “solve” problems by using more chemicals, etc.

We have come to depend on an agribusiness structure almost totally dependent on petroleum for the manufacture of fertilizers, the operation of farm equipment, and the transportation of supplies to the farms and the transportation of the crops to market. We can, so far, “afford” it. The price of food is rising faster than overall inflation, but food for North Americans is still very cheap, about 8 or 9 % of income on average. When, as seems inevitable to me, the price of oil begins to seriously impact the price of food, we might see some changes in the way Americans and Canadians grow and market food.

We are accustomed now to buying almost anything at any time of the year. When there are no strawberries in BC, I can buy strawberries from Chile. I can buy “fresh” blackberries right now at Costco, and “fresh” snap peas from Guatemala. What it has cost to produce these things, what it has cost to get them to me in February, makes for interesting speculation. Is this a “good thing”? To those who enjoy imported produce, I suppose it is. To those who are uninterested in the issues implicit in such trade, I suppose it is.

Organic farming is a growth industry. Yet much organic farming is “industrial” in its methods, even when devoted to soil conservation and health by use of organic methods and done without herbicides and pesticides. I can buy organic salad mix from California (and I do), but the same amount of oil is needed to get the trucks from California to here as for conventional California lettuce. The farmer will have needed petroleum to operate his machinery. But he will not have used petroleum-based fertilizers.

Can the world be fed without “conventional” agriculture? It is constantly asserted that it can’t. Certainly in the short term it can, but when land is destroyed by poor farming practices, where are we to get more land? When the price of petroleum has got so high that farmers in poorer countries can’t afford to buy the fertilizers necessary for them to grow food the “modern way”, what are they to do? When, as is inevitable, some plague affects corn, what are we to do for corn? Corn, that is Zhea mays is the most important crop in the world, and yet the number of varieties grown is pathetically small, leaving this precious crop vulnerable to disease.

I don’t think our future is going to see a reversal of history and that millions of people will have to return to the land to grow food. I think with some common sense and necessary changes in the way we grow food, it will be possible to keep feeding ourselves without destroying the soil. I think that as the price of oil continues to rise, the folly of buying blackberries in February will be seen to be the folly it is, and affordable only by the very rich. (In Roman times the Emperor could have anything he wanted, after all he could afford to pay for it. Fruits from Egypt in the winter, ice for sherbets in the summer.)

It is simply not possible for the Earth to feed everyone the way we eat in North America. There isn’t enough land, never mind anything else. We live too high on the hog, anyway. Our lives will change either voluntarily or otherwise.

10

I think sustainable farming is a great choice for the individual small farmer. I won’t promise it’s a profitable choice–although I think in many cases, choices which sound more environmentally friendly are also consumer friendly, which means that I think that if it costs more per chicken to raise free-range heritage chickens than factory-farm chickens, most of that cost can be passed on to the consumer.

I also think that sustainable farming, organic farming, locally-grown food and slow food movements are trendy right now. I hate to call them faddish, because I think the appeal will last longer than a fad, but I’m not convinced that any of these movements will subsitute for factory-farming as a way to feed the masses.

Part of that belief comes from seeing products in my local grocery store-- a regional chain grocery store-- such as pre-chopped organic onion, carrot, celery, etc. for putting in one’s soup pot; Frito-Lay Organic Corn chips, made from organically grown corn; Or 100 calorie Hostess Cupcake products. Most people are not consistently willing to spend the time and energy required to convert whole food ingredients into the kinds of food we want to eat.

And there is a part of me which wonders how much it matters how the ingredient is grown, if it is processed as much as some products are before they get to me, the end consumer. And it sure looks to me like people are coming up with more and more ways to minimize the time spent preparing and cooking food in household kitchens.

But another part of me says that any steps people to take to be environmentally friendly, organic, or sustainable is a good step, even if it isn’t consistent. And who knows? If I want to buy whole carrots, rather than those baby carrot thingies, I have to buy organic, because my grocery store has found that there is no significant price difference between organically grown carrots and conventionally grown carrots, and the organic ones taste better. (And I buy whole carrots sometimes rather than baby ones because the whole carrot tastes better).

I don’t buy a lot of organic produce, because the prices tend to be higher, and I’m not always sold on the idea that I’d notice a difference in quality. I do buy locally grown produce fairly often.

Who knows what the future of farming in general will hold, but I find it easy to imagine a spectrum of products ranging from locally grown, organic, sustainable, whole food products at boutique prices to distantly grown, highly processed, factory-farmed products at massmarket prices and everything in between.

11

It’s been 10 years since I took a course on sustainable farming, but from what I remember, organic techniques actually compare favorably to conventional techniques on a per-acre basis. Where they fall apart is on a per-farmer basis: conventional agriculture substitutes chemical* fertilizer and pesticides, as well as petroleum, for that human labor.

I’m reading Michael Pollan’s In Defense of Food right now. I have some problems with it (briefly, his approach sometimes reminds me of Intelligent Design advocates who point to a few gaps in the fossil record and claim it as support for their own unsupported theories), but he does make some interesting points. Among them is the idea that agriculture maximized for low-cost foods available through supermarket distribution is not an agriculture maximized for human health; we aren’t exactly choosing varieties of tomatoes, for example, based on which tomatoes are the most healthful for humans to eat. Sustainable agriculture, to a greater degree, considers such concerns.

Daniel

  • yes, yes, yes, chemists, we know that everything is a chemical, and for that matter all farming is organic; please don’t make this point unless you’re familiar with the secondary definitions of each word, which I’m using.
12

I just finished Pollan’s Omnivore’s Dilema and I agree he has some very good points but it needs a little refining…as would anything.
If you liked his book, check out Animal, Vegetable Miracle, by Kingsolver. It promotes the idea of being a Locavore - one who gets everything they consume from less than a 100 to150 mile radius.
[staunch environmentalist]Sustainable living, I wish, was not a fad. I wish people really got into it on a larger scale…I think my wish is slowly coming true but we need to keep up the momentum for living more green lives. [/staunch environmentalist]

13

If you believe James Howard Kunstler, you and I will live to see the day when practically everybody is a locavore and there is nothing we can do to avoid it.

14

Excellent points for the most part, (BrainGlutton, I’m not even going to comment on your post. If you want to discuss lab grown food, open another thread)

This is not really feasible, it’s either one or the other. I choose sustainable.

Vison, I agree with a lot of your points.

Please note I am using the term “sustainable”, NOT “organic” or as it is marketed now “certified organic” The reason I don’t is because for me, it is not something I really buy into. As I have stated in another thread ( I forget which one right now) factory farmed livestock can be labeled certified organic as long as they are fed certified organic feed. Once the government and big business has gotten involved, it has been tainted IMO.

Eureka, If there was a local Farmers Market in your area, would you do your major food shopping there if the cost was relatively the same?

15

You certainly do not need to be Organic to have a self sustainable farm. Central Alberta would seem to have a lot of sun year round? Lot’s of wind all the time? Is that true? Are there any sustainable co-ops around?

16

Have you considered getting into some boutique crops that might be a bit of a PITA to establish but have the advantage of getting consistent high prices in the market? Something like wasabi can go for forty bucks a pound if you can get the right conditions for growing it. It needs running water so if you have a year round creek on your property wasabi might be an alternative. Along with it, growing fish is nice–down south they have three pond systems for growing catfish which produces a lot of fabulous fertilizer along with highly marketable protein and I’ve often wondered whether doing something similar for trout would work up here in the northern climes.

I’m amazed at the prices good fresh herbs command at the farmer’s markets around here, especially since for me a lot of the same stuff goes into compost during the summer because the front yard is going insane and I have to prune constantly. Down at the farmer’s markets people are charging three bucks for a little bunch of what I’m sweeping up after neatening the front yard! I really ought to be taking this stuff to sell, especially since it’s all organic.

Restaurants are often quite interested in securing a good local supply of grace note ingredients and if you have an active restaurant community I bet you could easily keep your 50 acres busy and producing enough to keep you in beer and skittles…

On the animal side, sheep are great because they produce wool and skins along with meat, and an alpaca in with your flock will protect them and produce high quality wool as well. If you want to go dairy, goats are a good choice because well made goat cheese goes for a much higher price per pound than cow cheese, plus goats are easier on the land overall. Raising rabbits for meat is low impact, doesn’t take up much room and they produce great fertilizer. Rabbit is a very underutilized meat, to my mind; low fat and tasty.

I think the key to sustainability is diversity–never relying too much on any one crop to make your fortune on. Since you aren’t heavily invested in any one crop it’s easier to phase out things that don’t profit in favor of those that do.

Tell ya what, Farmer Chick, the project sounds like fun and I’d love to be in your shoes–but here in Oregon rather than up further north. If I had even ten acres I’d be working it like a rented mule because we have a LOT of high end restaurants up here that just line up with checkbooks out to get local high quality ingredients for their dishes!

17

I’ll have to read this book, looks interesting.

I’m not so sure we are necessarily in for a catastrophe, but I do think we are going to see quite astonishing changes our way of life. We have been living in a fool’s paradise provided by cheap oil.

Our economies depend on constant growth. There is not room for constant growth, the plant outgrows its pot sooner or later. And with the huge populations of China and India longing to live as we live, it brings the inevitable closer.

Just a little example: in some Indian cities, there are “vegetarian” neighbourhoods and “non-vegetarian” neighbourhoods, as all of a sudden many Indians can afford to buy meat and do so. This is a huge change in their society, and not universally welcome. If, by some chance, most Indians began to eat meat, where would it come from? Likewise with China: if the Chinese began to consume beef on a North American scale, where would it come from?

18

Not in any way true.

That doesn’t even make any sense. It certainly isn’t correct.

Of course adding required nutrients to the soil will maintian soil fertility. That is the very defintion of soil fertility.

Only over a very short period. Over a period of decades the prcie of food has been falling consistently and continues to do so.

No, instead he will have used masive amounts of petroleum in shipping low density “organic” fertilisers. Using organic fertilisers actually requires more petroleum than conventional ferilisers precisely because they are so low density and do require such a lot of transport.

That won’t happen. It’s just doomsaying hysteria with no basis in fact.

Even at current prices oil shales are competitive and taking an increasing share of the market. At an extra 10 cents a barrel for oil we have enough oil shale for about 400 years. So there will never be a time in the next 400 years peopel won’t be able to afford petroleum based fertilisers.

Secondly the standard of livingis skyrocketing wordlide, driven in large part by productive agriculture. As living standards rise the price peope can afford to pay for food rises and the relative cost of fertiliser actually falls. Thsi is what we are seeing today in the devloping world and it is atrend that will continue. Rather than farmer sin poorer countries fionding it harder to afford fertilisers the price of fertiliser has plummeted in poorer countries.

Use the corn that isn’t affected by the disease, just as we alwasy do when various “plagues” strike corn crops worldwide every single year.

Snmply not true. It doesn’t even approach wheat or rice by anymeasure of importance.

This is obviously false.

There are more varieties of maize grown in 2008 than at any point in human history. By what possible standard can the zenuth of diveristy be considered pathetic?

Oh god, is that it? Your position is based on the sma eflawed nonsense that led Malthus and Erlich to make such monstrously flawed predictions?

Look the economy is not a pot, nor is it aplant. The system is not closed. There is indeed room for constnat growth because human desire and human ingenuity are limitless.

Seriosuly vioson, go and read some Malthus and some Erlich, note how wrong they were wqhen they used the same flawed “reasoning” you are using. Then go reead some Simon and see just why the eocnomy can indeed grow indefinitely.

It amazes me that people have such difficulty seeing the obvious answer here. In reality, as living standards rise and allow people to eat more meat they also allow people to have fewer children and provide an incentive to do so. As a result populations fall to whatever level people feel comfortable living at. If everyone in India wants to eat three meat meals a day the population of India will fall to stabilise at a level that permits just that standard of living, just as it has in the western world.

The US has a high standard of living because it has so few humans living in it, and it has so few humans because people wanted a high standard of living and restricted fertility to achieve that. The two factors are inextricably linked. It makes no sense at all aksing how India or China will manage to support current populations at US living standards. It’s simply not an issue because if such a living standard isn’t possible at current population levels then the population will decline.

Look vision, the world is not going to hell in a handacart. Things are improving rapidly. far form agriculture prodiuctivityfalling a s you claim excatly th eopposite is true. We now produce more food and feed mroe peopel off less land and usingless oil than ever. The actual trend is excatly the oppposite of what you claim. While oil prices may increase by a dollar a barrel or or there is no shortage of cheap oil in the form of oil shale or tar sands that are already coming online, and those soucrce have sufficient supplies to last us for centuries, even allowing continued growth in the developing world.

19

But, it’s relevant this thread! Because it spares the Earth – that is to say, the land.

20

That simply isn’t true. The oldest grain grindstones date back ~40, 000 years, and all known HGs consume large quantities of grain in season. Any source claiming that the paleolithic diet contained few grains is untrustworthy. When it claims that the diet may have contained no grais it is also poorly researched. The widespread use of grains by HGs is not exactly a secret.