Here’s a link for some of the technology:
I know it’s a terrible hijack, but I’d like to point out how ridiculous I think the designations for emissions standards are getting. I mean:
ZEV - Zero Emissions Vehicle. OK, not widespread for a long time. So:
LEV - Low Emissions Vehicle
ULEV - Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle
SULEV - Super Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle
What’s next? EMSDULEV? Extra Mega Super Duper Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle?
[/hijack]
I can’t speak for everyone, but let me clarify my own position to those of you who feel persecuted.
I don’t ask to dictate your car choices. Furthermore, I know that SUVs are very good choices for many people. For example, they are one of the few options for safely transporting more than two children. I mean, you can’t fit more than two carseats in your average car, for fuck’s sake. Also, it’s a good way to haul around your dog. I know–part of the reason we got rid of our civic and bought a mini-SUV was so we could separate dog and child. Their high clearance also makes them better in some kinds of weather, like the blizzards we occasionally get in Michigan. They don’t plow our streets promptly, and we were trapped before we got our little SUV.
So that’s all good. And yes, if you want an SUV because you like them, or think they keep you safer, or make you feel better about yourself, or whatever, I don’t give two flying shits. My MIL has an SUV, and I suspect her reasons are that it was trendy (they got the Mercendes M class the first year it came out). That’s fine.
But what I do object to is some SUV owners making the arguments that their SUV is actually good for the environment, no problem to other drivers, have no social costs, and so on. I simply don’t believe that’s true. As I see it, part of making choices is also acknowledging that there are drawbacks to some of the choices we make. So what? Would it fucking kill some of you to accept a little accountability? I readily admit I’m a lazy fuck for not taking the bus to work every day and insisting on walking. That’s it: I’M A LAZY FUCK–I live close to a bus line and everything. I have no excuse. BUT I’m not going to try to lay some bullshit line on you about how my driving to work isn’t really a problem controbuting to the city’s parking and traffic woes.
As for my being “jealous” of SUV drivers, no. I’m sorry, it isn’t a money thing.
waterj2as to your comments about the number of people objecting as evidence of people’s feelings… it doesn’t matter what high-profile poster you’re talking about–everyone has enemies or people that are just annoyed with them. There are some people who would be thrilled to see me leave the boards, just as there are likely a number of people who feel that way about Scylla. Don’t assume that just because people don’t say it to a poster’s face (so to speak), he or she is universally beloved. No one is, as far as I can gather.
The true ‘flaunt your prosperity’ car in the DC area seems to be the Jaguar; there’s a lot more of 'em around here than you’d expect. If that’s how people want to spend their money, it’s fine with me.
They’re a lot more expensive than your average SUV, but if every SUV and minivan in the area were replaced by a Jaguar right now, I’d be delighted.
[sub]And add me to the list of people who can easily afford a spanking-new SUV, but don’t want one.[/sub]
Just so the record is clear, waterj2, I have nothing personal, no axe to grind, against Scylla. In fact, I was happily surprised and actually have more respect for him now that he has admitted being hypocritical. After all, admitting you have a problem is the first step.
Sorry guys, but the “Cleaner air going out of a car than going in” fails to laugh test, yet so many folks have fallen for it. Until you can hook a tube up to your exhaust, breath from it and live for any amount of time you are not making the air any cleaner.
No, no Mr. Miskatonic, I think we should congratulate the S.U.V. owners for balancing the social harm dealt by their massive, high-riding, parking-spot hogging, sight-blocking, death-dealing S.U.V.s is with cleaner air emissions."
Yes sir! I’ll be sure to tell the next man I see pinned underneath an SUV to enjoy the pure oxygen exhaust pipes.
Yes indeedy! My, I’ll have to tell those SUV advertisers to stop inundating me with their glossy ads touting their clean air emissions! And all those self-righteous SUV owners, comparing their emissions specs, why, how dare they think they’re better than me, a mildly smelly bike owner!
And Scylla, since you emit man-funk when you jog, please be sure to have the wife trail you with her air-scrubbing SUV. We’re trying to keep the world safe for the next generation, y’know.
until they make one that can run a 13 second quarter mile, pull .90 lateral G, zip through the slalom cones over 65 MPH, and knock down nearly 30 MPG in sixth gear. Oh, and do it for under 30K.
You funny.
Agree.
Why did you find it necessary to submit a totally unrelated personal attack (based on your knowledge of Scylla from an unrelated MPSIMS thread)? Were your facts insufficient? Surely if your position is strong, this was unnecessary.
FTR - I don’t drive an SUV, hate being behind them/beside them on the road, don’t envy them, secretly laugh at them behind their backs, etc.
I didn’t find it necessary, I found it funny, and based on my discussion with Scylla, I think he would, too. Why anyone would consider it a personal attack, I don’t know. He admittedly stinks when jogs, does he not?
Perhaps you meant “Why’d you use personal information to make a humorous point.” To which I’d say – A) It ain’t personal if you post it on a public board, and, B) Let Scylla take his own offense, he’s a big boy, and he gives as good as he gets, as a cursory examination of this thread proves.
Sounded to me like a cheap shot. Still does.
You say it was your intent to include it as a humorous aside. I’ve done the same, I suspect - generally, I’ll include something to indicate it, tho. Shrug.
Wring: I plead guilty as charged.
Do I have to do laps, or confess to my own exercise induced man-funkiness?
For instance, I think my bathroom needs one of those SUV 8-liter air-scrubbing engines. 
No need to do pennance on my part -
Some of these threads get so well, you know. And I know it’s the Pit blah blah blah, gratuitious fornication suggestion, but I believe it carries over. If you keep your focus on the argument, you’re less likely to get sidetracked into side issues that detract from the main point.
So, whoever wins this SUV gig, the really important ones will be comin’ up(like cats vs. dogs, MaryAnn Vs. Ginger, Bailey vs. Jennifer, Batman vs. Spiderman etc) , and I always prefer that folks (especially those who tend to argue the liberal POV) keep on track, and not succomb ('cause it’s really, really easy to dismiss your point if you engage in that sort of thing)
And precisely how many men (or women or children) have you seen pinned under an SUV? Please feel free to compare to compact cars, minivans, pickup trucks, sports cars, convertibles, Lincoln Town Cars, or any other vehicle you would like to use, including skateboards, rollerblades, or bicycles on the sidewalk.
Citation of sources comparing bicycle injuries vs. SUV injuries re: pedestrians would be especially appreciated. Because, since anecdotal evidence is the manna for SUV-deriders, I’ve never been almost run over by an SUV, but I’ve been hit several times by bicyclers who can’t tell the difference between the road and the sidewalk (I’ve also never seen an SUV on the sidewalk). BAN BICYCLES!!! Compared to a pedestrian, their riders are massive, high-riding, parking-spot hogging, sight-blocking, death-dealing, wheels of doom.
Or we could all leave the hyperbole at home. YMMV.
As a pedestrian I have been struck twice by an SUV, both times they were turning right on red and weren’t looking. It was a low-speed collision and I was not seriously hurt. BY comparison, I’ve been hit three times by standard automobiles, but these hits are over my lifetime and SUV’s are playing catchup.
Do keep in mind that I am a very agressive pedestrian and refuse to let “creeping autos” keep me from crossing the street as is my right.
I know it was an attempt at a joke, but it fell flat. Bikes simply don’t use parking spaces.
If a bike blocks you line of sight, you have some serious problems with your vision.
Bikes deal about 1 death to pedestrians per year in the USA and it is usually some fool tooling illegally on a sidewalk. They simply should not be there, period.
Mr. Miskatonic, what would you say is the proportion of SUVs on the road near you in recent days, to regular cars on the road near you?
I have a 4-liter L6 engine in my Jeep. I now consider myself immune to all bitching about 8-cylinder gas-hogging ass-motors.
RTF:
Specifically why my wife needs a great big SUV 
I’ve been thinking about this line of sight thing, and trying to pay attention to it while I drive. SUV’s tend to be more difficult to see around then regular cars, about the same as minivans or pickups. I don’t see it as a major issue. The average twists and turns and ups and downs of a road give you a very serviceable idea of what’s ahead if you’re not tailgaiting. On other stretches you can just jog your car in or out to get the view. If you’re maintaining a safe distance it’s not a safety issue.
The area where it might be an issue is if you’re passing on two-lane highway, or following on one of those highways which only has two lanes going one way occasionally. In any event, I would classify it as a minor inconvenience.
Coldfire:
Well, anyway, sorry. I intended it for humor value only. In hindsight it’s not that funny.
Hmmm. At advance auto parts online I looked at brakes for both a 2000 Subaru, and a 2000 Durango (I went with 2000 because I had some trouble finding '02)
The brake pads seem to compare pretty well.
Raybestos Suburu pads are ceramic and cost $57 bucks, Durangos are semi-metallic and cost $37. The cheapest I see for the Subaru are $21.99 but those are a different brand, though semi-metallic. In looking at the different brands, the Suburus might be a little cheaper, but not much.
Go see: http://www.advanceautoparts.com/
[quotes]
No, according to the specs I quoted, the Sub gets about 27 MPG on the highway versus the 17 MPG for the Durango.
[/quote]
Oops. I stand corrected. I compared the highway of the Durango to the city of the Suburu. That’s fair, right?
Yeah, but apples and oranges. More storage space, and the Durango has a lot bigger torque numbers. That gives it grunt from the get-go, better acceleration, better hill-climbing ability, and the ability to tow a significant load. Now we could tow with my old '79 Chevy truck, but my wife wanted the Durango. She liked it better, and so we bought it. In discussing it we talked about the economy power trade off. My wife like the idea that we had something that could tow that wasn’t a wreck, she liked being higher up, and the fact that in a collision the Durango was going to make the other car take the brunt of the impact.
I’ll confess unapologetically to selfishness in this matter. I want my wife and daughter to survive a crash. I want a tank around them. I want them to have an advantage over another vehicle in a collision. I fully understand that this may mean that another party may suffer more, but I would have them alive and feel guilty. I also realize that it’s a no-win game from a society standpoint, but there are enough other people playing the game this way, that it would be foolish and irresponsible of me not to as well. And, in a collision, the other party has also made their decision about what to drive as well.
I didn’t make the world, I just live in it.
At any rate, my wife likes the Durango. We bought it. I think these idiots who are railing against SUV drivers, are just that, idiots. Nobody knows what goes into my wife’s choice of vehicle, so how can they judge it, or her?
Worse yet are those that say, “I’m just against people that drive them without a need.” How do they identify these people? What constitutes a legitimate need? We used to live on a farm, we haul lots of crap, we haul a trailer, but we don’t need it. Our old truck, though a pain, can do the job. The fact is that it’s a convenience, and one we’ve chosen.
We’ve also moved closer to work and our usual destinations. She doesn’t drive a lot of miles. She goes about 2 weeks between fillups. Somebody commuting long distance in an econo-box is using more gas, but I don’t see anybody calling them inconsiderate asses ruining the world because of their choice of domicile. There are lots of things that go into the way you live, and whether your wasteful. Your choice of vehicle is just one small variable in a complex equation.
What kind of idiot judges the equation by a single variable?
Ace:
I wasn’t offended, but it wasn’t the best joke anywhere. At any rate I have no problem with it, but you better watch yourself or I sic Wring on you.
Let’s see: That leaves me with Ike.
Ukele Ike:
A pyrrhic victory for you, I guess. I did think better or you. In fact, I can’t recall conflicting with you or having an issue with you. Normally, I’d invite you to tell me what the issue is, but in this case I don’t give a rat’s ass. The way you’ve chosen to come after me is all I need to know.
I don’t think it goes without saying. I would guess that there would be a higher standard, and that hat doesn’t come off that easily.
I believe that’s the first time anyone has accused me of being a neglectful father, and I can hardly think of a person less qualified to make such a judgement.
The way I see it, a person with integrity and class is very careful about making such a judgement, and if they feel they must, they do it in person where they can face the consequences. Failing that as a possiblity, if you felt you had a valid issue with my parental duties you should have taken it to email.
The fact that you chose to attack me from out of the blue like that, and on those grounds would be a bewildering puzzle if Occam’s razor didn’t present the solution so readily.
And although there will be posters who say we just make it worse, I agree with you 100%.
When I was 5 months pregnant, I was involved in an accident that could have killed several people and my unborn child. I credit my vehicle with allowing me to walk away without a scratch. My husband was able to evade a car making a left turn right across our path without looking, we remained upright with all four wheels firmly on the ground, and all that was banged up was metal, and that can always be fixed. Our car not only had great traction control in a sudden high speed evasive turn, but it’s bolt-on frame construction allowed for plenty of twist, whereas a unibody frame would have been much too stiff to make the turn and probably would have rolled over.
We were driving a Land Rover Discovery. We were so impressed that we now have two.
We can afford just about any car we want, and we pay some high insurance premiums and repair costs with the cars we drive. But money is nothing compared to our safety and the safety of our children. Period.
I’m sorry if my choice offends people, or if my headlight placement does. But not sorry enough to do anything differently.
Scylla:
In other news, Mt. Everest tends to be higher than everywhere else on the planet.
Please enroll in a refresher course on the rules of perspective. If there is a large object in your line of sight and a smaller object further away that is also directly in your line of sight, you will NOT be able to see the smaller object. And since most highways and major roads in this country tend to be (a) pretty straight and (b) pretty crowded so that everybody is too damn close to everybody else, that means that a Behemobile in front of me is going to very effectively obscure at least one and probably four or five cars in front of the Behemobile . . . all for the sake of one inconsiderate commuter who rationalizes that he carries his dog to the park on Saturday mornings.
Yes, tractor-trailers do the same thing, and then some. But at least they’re not typically found in the far-left lane of a three-lane highway, and at least they’re fulfilling a valuable function that cannot be fulfilled by something a little less gigantic. If the guy in the Great Dane trailer is using it to tool around town for groceries, I have a major gripe about that too.
Also, Ukelele Ike is entitled to express his personal opinion of another poster regardless of his status as a member or a moderator. But Uke, what the heck set that off, anyway? I know that self-righteousness and a callous disregard for the rest of the world are a highly annoying combination, but it’s not either one of those is in short supply on the boards or elsewhere.