SUV haters

I don’t understand this bunch at all. I guess their trying to save the world, but all they do is piss me off and I never knew such fruitcakes were out there until I came to this board.

What the hell is the problem with these people that they have to stick their facers in everybody’s business?

Who set them up as the judge of what is appropriate?

Well you have the right to have an SUV even if you don’t need one, and I have the right to look down on you for being inconsiderate

Yeah. Yeah. And not only do I have the right, I have a lot of evidence to conclude that you’re a total moron.

You’ve concluded that SUVs are bad, and that people that drive them without a “need” are somehow inconsiderate.

However you are a total idiot for thinking so.l

Just about any SUV out there is more environmentally friendly and gets better gas mileage than that station wagon that pulled your sad little ass around when you just a snot-nosed tike still puking on the fetid milk of your mother’s saggy dugs, and you’ve done precious little to improve your mind since.

They burn less gas. They don’t burn it leaded, and they burn it cleaner. The SUV is the station wagon of today. My wife’s Dodge Durango gets about the same mileage and shares the same catalytic converter as your basic minivan.

She drives it because she likes it. she could drive a Town & Country if she wanted to. A Town & Country though is significantly larger and has a higher curb weight. It’s also not built on a truck base, and nowhere near as durable as the Durango. Ultimately the Durango should outlast the Town & Country as it has a bigger engine which runs with less strain and a much stronger tranny. The suspension is better, and it has four wheel drive for those rare occasions when there’s snow on the road.

It is a better use of resources than a minivan, because it will last longer than a minivan. When that minivan is sitting on a scrap heap, that Durango will still be running and providing good service.

Take a look at the Toyota 4runner. There’s a damn nice SUV that gets better gas mileage than most cars on the road. Look at the Honda CRV, the Rav 4, a Jeep Wrangler, or Liberty.

These are good strong durable versatile vehicles. They compare favorably with most vehicles on the road, and they are certainly less the guzzler than a Lincoln Town Car, or a big ole Caddy.
But I’m talking about those big SUVS, the ones that use all the gas and are so dangerous, because they’re so huge

Ahh yes. The Lincoln Navigators and Suburbans and Excursions and Hummers.

Again, you’re missing the point. Because these vehicles are built like tanks they will be around for a long time. Yes they consume a lot of gas. However, their construction is a far more efficient use of resources than today’s economy cars.

How many K cars do you see on the road today? How many Yugos? How many Dodge Omnis?

Those little fuel efficient boxes of the 1980s are gone. They are rusting on heaps in junkyards all across the United States. However, you have only to look in any used car section to see that the Buick Roadmasters the Lincoln towncars, the Caddys and the other land barges are still out on the road doing their thing. All the old pickup trucks are still running and it looks like every Bronco and Blazer that was ever made is still out there giving service.

Those vehicles have served many times the useful lives of their economy car brethren, and the hundreds of thousands of miles that their low rpm big displacement engines have reliably run and continue to run pay final insult to the shitty little econo boxes. Look at all the resources and energy expended in their design and construction. Look at all the steel and plastic and all the other materials taken from this earth that are just wasted.

I grew up with the first SUV. An International Travelall that my father drove, and that bad boy will give pause to anyone driving down the road in their Lincoln navigator.

My father had that car from 1965-1982, and he still regrets having sold it. The Toyota Celica he replaced it with lasted only ten years. My father knows who he sold that Travelall to, and you know what? It’s still running.

But the new technology is so much better. Look at the Honda Insight. It gets 50 miles to the gallon

It’s a bigger waste than any SUV ever made. Same with the Toyota Prius. Yes, you have that nice little efficient engine humming away, but my God! Look at the RPMs.

I have news for you. There’s no getting around the fact that the overengineered little engines in your economy cars are not going to last. All that heat and torque is going to wear them fast. They have to work far harder to produce the same results as a bigger engine, and it comes with a cost. That cost is wear on smaller more fragile parts incurring higher stresses. Once your little four banger starts to lose compression, all your efforts at fuel efficiency and environmental friendliness are for naught. When it starts to degrade it’s going to only partially combust it’s fuels and the resultant waste vapor is going right out your tailpipe.

That great big v6 or v8 is gonna run in tune and last much longer. They also just measure emmisions by what comes out of the tailpipe. Go stand by the oil breather valve of a Honda Civic and watch what comes out after the first 30,000 miles. The lower temperatures of your bigger engines aren’t putting out all that crap.

Then look at your hybrid eco-friendly vehicles. Those are some great big batteries in those things to store all that juice, aren’t they? How long do you think those batteries last before they have to be replaced? You got about three years. There’s a lot more toxic sludge an pollution gone into making and disposing of those batteries than all the emmisions in any SUV out there. How long do you think that little engine will last? Look at the sacrifices made in those cars for gas economy. They’re tin foil, and every working part has been shaved of every excess ounce possible to give it that little extra bit of efficiency.

The difference is simple. I shave with a straight razor. I’ve had it for ten years. It is a large ostentatious instrument, representing a huge investment in resources compared to say, a bic razor.

Chances are I’ll be shaving with that straight razor when I’m 85 years old. How many bic razors will you have thrown away in that same time?

Likewise the Travelall. I’ll put that car against any efficiency vehicle ever made for its use of resources versus service given.

If you really cared, and you were smart enough to think about it, you’d like SUVs if you’re an environmentalist.

Yes, shithead commuting with his new SUV to the office isn’t helping anything in the short run with his choice, but those cars will be around, and get sold and work their way through the economy. The catalytic converter only last a year or two (and if you were smart, you SUV hating idiots would lobby for madatory catalytic converter replacement every 30-40 thousand miles instead of against SUVs)

8 years or so from now when that SUV is sold for $2,000 to some nonadvantaged person, they are going to have good solid reliable transportation for years to come. That low rpm easily tuned engine is going continue to burn fuel within its original tolerances and maintain compression and it’s original efficiency for years to come.

We’ve all seen the VW bugs going down the road in a cloud of fumes. We’ve all seen the old Honda Civics with the visible vapor trails. What you don’t know is that for years before the car gets to that point the little 4 bangers in those economy cars are losing compression and tune an pumping tons of shit into the air, and their catalytic converters are beyond useless and actually work as an impediment. Meanwhile, the larger cooler and slower running engines of the SUVs are still running at spec.

Any idiot ought to understand about underengineering and wider tolerances. Any idiot ought to understand that a well-built and lasting piece of equiptment is worth ten cheapo pieces of shit. Any idiot ought to understand, that a larger cooler slower turning engine is gonna make up over it’s more efficient brethren over it’s service lifetime, because of its durability and wider tolerances. Any idiot ought to understand that it’s not what car you drive, it’s how you drive and maintain it.

Finally, any idiot ought to understand that the car I choose to drive is absolutely none of your goddamned business, and no, you are not entitled to your own opinion. You’re not. When you choose to judge somebody else’s decision of preference that is a judgement founded in ignorance.

Case well and truly made, Scylla.

As I said in the other thread, I’m not fond of SUVs, but who am I to question your right to own one? I’m nobody.

And, SUV haters, so are you.

And let’s talk about tires. My wife has her tires rotated on the Durango every 6,000 miles. She just got her second set of tires at 70k. That’s how long they’ve lasted. My Sebring will be on its third set by the time I hit 50k with it. Then there’s the difference in how the cars are wearing. I’ve had to go in for repairs on my suspension, I’ve needed a new starter, and a transmission rebuild on my Sebring. The Durango has a clean service history. Nothing in 75k miles. Nothing.

My beef is with people who seem to think that I, and I personally, am responsible for depleting the ozone, killing the environment, polluting the air, and giving people asthma, because of the car I drive.

And I’m REALLY amused by the people who criticize SUV’s for “being too big” and then accuse the owners of “compensating for a small penis”… to me, both comments seem mutually exclusive. And it’s much funnier when you consider that the owner of this particular family’s collective SUV is a sweet little woman. I would like to see anybody tell my mom that she’s compensating for a small dick and not come off as a total asshole.

Scylla, I shall never cease to be amazed at the amount of free time you seem to have on your hands.

Why aren’t you reading to your kid?

Hi, Scylla.

I don’t give a rat’s ass about saving the world, when it comes to SUVs. And I find the comment “What the hell is the problem with these people that they have to stick their facers in everybody’s business?” incredibly ironic.

The reason I hate SUVs (and minivans, and large pickups, too, FWIW) is that they are so often in my face.

If you can get their impossible-to-see-through-or-around massive hulks out of my immediate line of sight as I’m driving down the road, I’ll shut up about them here.

Deal?

Ike:

She’s asleep. I type fast. I don’t watch tv.

RTF:

Well, at least that seems to be a legitimate complaint. Do you mind sharing the road with minivans and tractor trailers as well.

Some good points, though I wouldn’t necessarily compare todays SUVs to cars from a few decade ago. I sort of think it’s the knee jerk reactions on both sides that cause a lot of the intensity of emotion and I think it’s (as usual) unfortunate that it’s the extremes that get the attention.
There are things about SUVs I don’t like, just as there are (by way of example) things about motorcycles I don’t like, though I’ve enjoyed both. I think driving either is not necessarily the brightest idea, but the main difference, to me, is that a motorcyclist doesn’t endanger me or make my driving experience more difficult. (Not to mention trying to squeeze down a small NYC street with a double parked Excursion.)
FTR, some of my best friends are SUV drivers. :slight_smile:

Slowly, SUVs are improving. As you mentioned, they’re designed as trucks, not passenger vehicles so they have different requirements (just like the early mini-vans, IIRC), but they seem to be becomming safer and less like covered pickup trucks (safety-wise), and they are becoming more fuel efficient so SUVs are getting better.

Just another matter where people have different opinions (some more so than others).

PC

I’m with you RTFirefly, I don’t care who drives them or why… I just want to see in front of me…

Then again if I had the money I’d buy an Escalade

I don’t care for SUVs.
That’s why I’ll never drive one. I don’t see how anyone thinks they have a right to bitch about what other people drive.

I only hate SUV drivers who are discourteous with their vehicles - much like I’d hate other drivers who act similarly. My worst peeve is with the ones who pull up on your left side when you’re trying to pull out of a parking lot, and pull far forward enough to completely block your view to the left. So, you have to wait for them to go before you can safely pull out. I could see through the windows/over the hood of those old-fashioned station wagons (which my parents never owned) at least.

You’ll have to admit, though, not just SUVs alone have such wonderful durability. I’ve seen Volvos, Audis, even Honda Civics that have lasted ~20 years. Meanwhile my husband’s old Jeep Wrangler did last a good long time but was a real pain in the ass, needed a lot of repair.

And yes, I’ll admit to being vaguely amused at SUVs that are never used for anything approximating their original purpose. I’m also amused at high-performance sports cars that never get used for racing, but hey, own what you want. I’m sure I own things that other people think are silly or underutilized. Just don’t mess with my driving experience, and I won’t with yours.

OK, Scylla, point taken. I hadn’t looked at the SUV arguement from this angle, and on the whole, your OP looks solid. I do not like SUVs in general, not because of their perception as wasteful behemoths, but probably because so many of their drivers never learn how to properly handle these vehicles. I believe that once the center of gravity of a vehicle reaches a certain height off the road, its driving characteristics change enough to require special driving instruction. I’ve seen too many SUV drivers think they can drive their larger vehicles like their previous Cavaliers and Contours, and nearly cause accidents. Plus, they forget that their headlights are a couple of feet higher when they pull up behind me. :wink:

I also do not like them because (although this is changing) their technology has been far behind cars for a long time. See this article. SUVs, especially the larger ones, are still based on trucks, which are heavy for their size, and handle poorly due to inferior suspension technology. This only compounds the problem of inexperienced drivers. Hell, I’d be scared to death to drive an Excursion or Escalade without some sort of training. That’s a lot of vehicle to wield when you’re used to a FWD rice rocket.

Also, I believe that since SUV drivers believe themselves to be safer within their vehicles, they drive less safely, counting on their vehicles mass to save them. Unfortunately, with that mass comes momentum. And that sucks when you hit an unmoveable object like a wall. Larger SUVs, with their truck frames, are stiffer and transmit much more of the shock to the occupants. Not my idea of safety.

Overall, though, many manufacturers are beginning to realize the shortcomings of the larger SUVs. Ford moved the Expedition (I think) to a car chassis with independent rear suspension, which will I’m sure improve its handling and ride comfort. The smaller SUVs (RAV4, CRV, etc.) already take advantage of this technology, being based on smaller cars. And engine technology has progressed a long ways since your dad’s Travelall, so a bigger engine is not necessarily a heavier polluter.

I still dislike many SUVs, but having read and seen what I have, it’s mostly due to exterior styling preference at this point. I’ve never used the “compensation” argument strictly for SUVs, as I believe that theory could apply todrivers of Porches and Ferraris as well. I don’t agree with you that I have no right to dislike another person’s vehicle, however. I don’t have to like what you drive, as long as my reason for doing so isn’t completely ignorant. Agreed? After all, given your OP, I tend to think you might sneer at what I drive. :smiley:

And on previewing, I see that PosterChild has already said some of the above. Oh well.

I don’t like them. I think they’re environmentally bad, blahblahblah, all that good stuff. But so are a lot of other things that I do like. What makes me pissy about SUVs is the following:

–I can’t see through/around/over most of them.
–Most of them aim their headlights RIGHT INTO MY GODDAMN, LONG SUFFERING EYES!

If those two problems go away…I’ve got no problem with them.

[wiseass answer]

Then stop tailgating!

[/wiseass answer]

Hmm, well, I don’t understand where the idea that I shouldn’t post my opinion on SUVs on a public forum came from. Isn’t the BBQ pit the place for negative opinion? If you don’t want your precious SUV to be insulted, don’t read the thread where everyone’s insulting them. It’s not like I went into your face and started screaming about it. I have every right to bitch about them. A lot of the issues brought up about SUVs were still not debunked in your OP. Such as tailgating with high beams (Which has never happened to me with a semi. Professional drivers are more courteous generally) Also the fact that people drive their SUV like their Acura’s. Lot’s of things.

As for the rest of it, cite?

Erek

If I’d have previewed, I’d have seen this. I have the same visibility issues (pulling up along side, plus blocking vision in the front) with minivans that I do with SUVs. Both annoy me in those respects. I don’t have as big of a problem with tractor trailers because I don’t encounter as many of those while driving, while in my neighborhood, 1/3 or more of the vehicles I encounter are SUVs, with the rarer minivan.

Funny how so many people seem to bitch about big bad SUVs being in their face, shining headlights in their eyes, blocking their lines of sight, etc.

Pickup trucks, minivans, regular vans, trucks and busses have all been around a lot longer than SUVs, and all of them have done the exact same thing for time immemorial. Everyone I’ve ever heard make these complaints has been driving long enough to have shared the road with behemoth vehicles from day one, but only SUVs raise this specific point of ire.

I agree with Scylla wholeheartedly, looking at the differences between the durability of my car (a Lexus ES 300, by no means a cheap little 4-burner ) and my husband’s SUV, a Toyota Land Cruiser. Both are leases, so we won’t keep them for their entire lifespan, but I know which one would last longer if we were to hang on to them.

Nah, when I lived in Minnesota about 10 years ago I complained about pickups and people with misaligned headlights. Like I said in my post, there’s more SUVs where I live. Add to that the amazingly crappy drivers in the suburb I live in, and driving tends to be annoying. :smiley:

OK, for everyone that bitches about SUVs, answer me this:

Where can I buy a full-sized, car-based station wagon that will haul a resonable amount of heavy stuff? You’ll probably need body-on-frame construction and a solid rear axle. And it should cost around $23 grand. They don’t make them any more. Of course, even if they did, they’d probably be about as fuel efficient and heavy as your average Explorer.

Personally, I’d love to have a vehicle that was more fuel efficient than my Explorer but still able to haul 1000lbs of rock on the weekends (like I’ve done for the last three weekends in a row). Actually, I’m searching for a new vehicle now. Do I buy a an economical vehicle for commuting? Do I buy a large vehicle that will haul the big, heavy stuff I buy at least 2X a month?

And MSWAS, I think it’s funny you made sweeping generalizations about an entire segment of drivers, then had the audacity to ask for a cite on the facts the OP espoused. Would this stereotyping be tolerated if it were directed at women drivers? Asians? Teenage males? Old people? All these groups have negative connotations associated with their driving ability, and the large percentage of these connotations are false. I’ve seen bad driving in plenty of groups of people.

When it all boils down, I think most the folks that bash SUVs are just scared and intimidated. I don’t like semi trucks since one pulled into my lane in took the front off my Honda Civic. SUVs may not be safer when they collide with other vehicles their size or immobile objects, but I’m pretty sure who’d come out on the bottom if an Excursion hit a Civic. This is nothing to brag about, it’s just physics. So you project these fears onto SUV drivers because they’re a convenient outlet.

Macro Man, please point me to the part where I said “ALL” SUV drivers.

Or if you are referring to the generalization of posters who post in these SUV threads pro-SUV, I do think that a large bit of insecurity comes out in their posts. So I’ll stick by that generalization. Sometimes generalizations are valid. When the majority of people within a certain sub-category behave in a particular fashion, it is reasonable to generalize.

Just so you understand why generalizations are generally looked down upon, is because generalizing about women assumes there is one type of woman. Or generalizing on black people assume there is one type of black people.

“People who post pro-SUV rants on internet message boards” most likely have a lot more in common with one another than other groups such as “women” or “black people”.

Erek