You’re damned right, I’m scared, Macro Man. I drive a small car, and I know that in a contest between my car and an Escalade, well, there would be no contest. And frankly, that fact pisses me off a little bit. That SUV drivers have the right to drive vehicles that clearly are more destructive in crashes with smaller cars irks me to no end. There’s no reason car companies can’t make SUVs more equal in terms of “crush zones” and impact absorption, while still maintaining their size and utility. But that’s why I direct my anger at them, and not the drivers of the things. On the other hand, many pro-SUV people here have taken the stance that they take comfort in the fact that in a crash, they’d “win”. And frankly, that scares me most of all.
Bah. Screw cars, period.
I ride a bicycle, and I prefer it that way. If I need to go somewhere a little further away, I’ll go for public transportation.
As a side note, it’s a good thing I don’t have a rocket launcher mounted on my bike. The vast majority of car drivers are total assholes when it comes to cyclists.
Addendum: I am not telling anyone what they should or shouldn’t drive, as it’s none of my fucking business. I am simply stating what I chose to do.
** Scylla,** you certainly had a long OP for someone who doesn’t believe anyone has a right to criticize your choice of vehicle. I don’t really have a problem with SUV’s, though, just the assholes who always seem to be driving them (your lovely wife, I’m sure, excepted). I would, however, like to see SUVs treated as passenger vehicles, instead of trucks, since that is what they are now.
Also, I can back you up on the Travelall. *That *was a vehicle.
That’s one of the stupidest things I’ve heard in the past fifteen minutes. I don’t have any “special rights” just because I bought a Jeep Cherokee to replace my fifteen-year-old Plymouth Reliant. YOU have the same exact “right to drive” that vehicle as I have, you just made the CHOICE not to buy an SUV. :rolleyes:
I DO take a measure of comfort from the thought that I might have better odds of surviving a crash in the Jeep than I did in the Reliant. Why the fuck is that a problem? It doesn’t mean that I’m glad that nobody else has that same amount of protection. Christ on a pogo stick. :rolleyes: again.
Random SUV-owning re:rants:
I’ll admit my gas mileage is worse with the (6-cylinder, but heavy) Cherokee than it was with the Reliant, but before the Reliant I had a 6-cylinder Cavalier. Cavalier got 21-22 mpg on average. Jeep gets 19-20. It’s not such a gigantic difference in gasoline use, but nobody would’ve accused me of personally sucking up all the fuel in Arabia when I was driving the Chevy. Hell, my dream car is a 1952 Hudson Hornet that would get worse mileage than the Jeep. What are the odds that I’d come out of the store to find a piece of paper telling me I’m a gas-wasting devil stuck under my windshield wiper when I was driving the Hornet? A lot worse than the odds of finding it under the wiper on the Jeep, I’d say.
Ok, so the truck is harder to see around than the Reliant, but you know something? I NEVER had so much trouble seeing around big trucks when driving the Reliant or the even-lower-to-the-ground Z24, that I had to bitch and hate big trucks. If you’ve really got that much of a problem, maybe you’re following too closely. In fact, the only time I really even notice the bulk of a truck in front of me is when I want to pass them, and they’re all the way to the right of their lane. This is why I drive more towards the left-hand side of the road - well, that, and I don’t want to risk being sideswiped by some asshole who crosses the yellow line (it happened once in the Chevy).
Most of the problems everybody bitches about with SUVs have nothing, or very little, to do with the TYPE of car, and EVERYTHING to do with the DRIVER of the car. You can’t prove that people who own SUVs are worse drivers. You probably just notice them more than you notice the equal percentage of assholes in small cars, because the SUVs are larger and easier to see.
Please switch “left” and “right” in the above post’s complaint about drivers in front of me and the sides of their lane that they cling to. As it is, it applies to Brits, but I’m an American and should’ve known better. :rolleyes: at myself this time.
When I mentioned SUV drivers’ “right to drive”, I was referring of course to the right of all of us to choose what we drive. In other words, it irks me that because we live in a society that allows us all to choose what we drive, I have to live with the fact that my vehicle puts me at a disadvantage in a collision with an SUV. Is that stupid, when there is no reason for this to be the case? Were car companies simply to design the SUVs to be more forgiving in a crash, maybe I wouldn’t feel this way. Clear enough?
And as for your other :rolleyes:, my comment was clearly not directed at you. If you were to have read it, you would have found that my fear is from drivers who take pleasure in the fact that they would flatten a Civic if caught in a collision with one. Thus the word “win”. I have no problem with people feeling more secure in such a situation. But I have had the distinct impression that some pro-SUVers out there take pleasure in the “Did I just hit something?” philosophy.
I did, and I really have to apologize for it. It was a trying day, I’d been haggling with powers and principalities since the morning, trying to get made the one who decides who lives and who dies. The licensing and bureaucracy involved with that are astonishing. Long story short, I finally managed to walk back out of the aethyrs with the lesser power of setting up judges of what’s appropriate, and, well, I just sort of appointed people randomly.
It won’t happen again. If for no other reason, because of the paperwork.
I did read it. Unless there was more of it that was hidden, and I didn’t have the special key to open the door to unlock EXACTLY WHAT YOU WROTE.
You said “many… here.” I take issue.
Actually, Zaphod, if I had a rocket launcher on my bike, I’d never be able to get anywhere, as there would always be heaps of twisted metal blocking my path. Plus the recoil would be hard to overcome. Much better to have a phaser set to “disintigrate”. As for SUVs, sure they annoy me, but they’re nothing compared to having to contend with tractor trailer trucks, buses, taxis, jaywalkers, and the Big Dig on a bicycle in the city.
That pisses me off, too. I mean, all the hard work I put into depleting the ozone, killing the enviroment, polluting the air, and all my work giving little children asthma, and fucking SPOOFE gets all the credit. Some days, I wonder why I even bother.
While we’re bitching: Scylla, “their” means “belonging to them.” “They’re” means “they are.”
waterj2, you make a convincing argument. I shall order that phaser immediately.
I drive a Mercury Villager. It is eight years old and has about 75000 miles on it. I hate driving a minivan. I want a sportscar really, really bad. I can’t have one. Why you ask?? Because I have two, soon to be three teenagers who I have to taxi all over the place. Sometimes with their friends. I need to seat at least seven.So my next vehicle WILL be a Dodge Durango. If any one wants to drive my kids all over town I will gladly drive a small wussey car for your benefit.Just be prepared to drive the husband, myself and the kids to Nebraska twice a year to visit family. WHAT? you don’t want to drive all of us all over the place?? Then Shut up, and let me drive whatever the fuck I have to!!
I have a solution! Let’s make stickers for SUVs that say “If you don’t like my driving please call _________” and we’ll set up a number like those cars that have the 1800-eat-shit number.
Erek
So, because YOU’RE in a small vehicle, everyone else should be, too? Sorry, doesn’t work that way. I see no moral problem with wrapping as much car around me as possible when I’m out driving. On the road, my first safety consideration is myself and my passengers… yours, unfortunately, takes up only a close second.
Scylla, thank you, thank you, thank you! I’ve been trying to figure out why so many people are being incredibly hostile towards SUV owners.
Let me make some SUV haters really angry - not only have I owned and driven an SUV since 1997, both vehicles (I’m in my second one now) were 1990 GMC Suburbans, one of the largest (if not THE largest) SUVs ever built. And, to paraphrase a somewhat joking remark made in another thread, you’ll take my Suburban when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
How many of you are driving an eleven or twelve year old vehicle (by choice)? If you’ve managed, or bothered (as in maintaining the vehicle properly), to do so, what is the resale value? When my first Suburban was totaled in an accident last year the insurance company had to fork over $8,600 in replacement money - for an 11-year-old vehicle with 150,000 miles on the odometer. I thought the insurance agent was going to have a heart attack, although I tried to warn him that, around here, used Suburban’s are sought after like precious jewels.
OTOH, I also own a 1990 VW Fox with 147,000 miles on it (that is rarely driven any longer) that is so fuel-efficient that we joke about it making gas instead of burning it; the same online site gives it a resale value of $375. Gee, a 1990 Suburban is not exactly what I’d call a stylish, ‘penis-replacement’ SUV - why is it worth so much more than the VW (which has certainly been a good little car)?
Is it more wasteful and inefficient to buy good, solid, multipurpose vehicles and then care for them properly so that they last for 15+ years, than to buy $20,000 fuel-efficient tin cans that will be worth jackshit in 10 years, if they aren’t already a piece of junk polluting some landfill? And why in the hell do so many of you buy new cars only to trade them in on another new car in just 3 or 4 years? Is it because your expensive new car is falling to pieces by then, because your ego needs the boost of a shiny new toy that’s prettier/sexier/faster than the old one, or because you need to impress your family/friends/neighbors/coworkers with your alleged monetary worthiness?
And now let’s talk about the damned safety issue - yeah, I drive a fucking ‘tank’ and will continue to do so until some of you idiots either get off of the damned road or actually learn how to drive. If you insist on driving around in a damned pregnant roller skate at least drive as if you are aware of the fact! In case you haven’t noticed, there are other fucking vehicles on the road - you’re not out there by yourself!
I’ve been driving for 27 years (and not just putt-putting around town, either) and have had one major accident (I’m not talking about parking lot fender benders), and it wasn’t my fault. I’m a very careful, very defensive driver. I’m fully aware of the limitations of a Suburban and drive accordingly. But that doesn’t make a bit of difference if you suddenly decide to put your damned motorized Budweiser can in the same road space occupied by my ‘tank’.
Last summer some idiot in a Taurus made an illegal turn across in front of me while I was travelling down a 4-lane highway (280 in Sylacauga, for you B’ham residents). Luckily, (for the Taurus occupants), I was only doing about 45 mph (the limit there is 55) - I had time to say “Oh, fuck” and stand on my brake before I hit the other car.
The Taurus was smashed - the passenger had to be cut out of the car and both she and the driver (I hit the passenger side) had to be Med-evaced to UAB in B’ham. When I collected the insurance check a week later the passenger was still hospitalized with multiple serious injuries. (I do hope that she recovered and is okay - I was never able to find out.) I walked away with bruises and strained muscles (yes, I was wearing my seatbelt!), and my truck was ‘totaled’ simply because the repair estimate was so high.
The fact that I was driving an SUV had nothing at all to do with the accident - I could just as well have been in my VW - but it had everything to do with the fact that I walked away with nothing but bruises. Certainly, the occupants of the Taurus would probably have been better off if I had not been driving my ‘tank’ - but I would probably have been killed, and I wasn’t the idiot that caused the wreck!
I originally bought a Suburban because I needed a large, enclosed vehicle to haul things in. Now, however, while I still need such a vehicle, my primary reason for driving a Suburban is because it is a ‘tank’, and my best protection from the idiots I’m forced to share the roads with. If you want to risk your life by riding around in a little Crackerjack toy masquerading as a car, that’s your decision. But keep in mind that there are vehicles out there that are a LOT bigger than my Suburban (tractor-trailers, anyone?). Why are you bitching about SUVs and not dump trucks, tractor-trailers, motorhomes, and commercial panel trucks? Oh, of course, I see - it’s not really about safety, or the environment, or fuel efficiency - it’s about being inconvenienced when looking for a parking place, or feeling intimidated because your car will fit in the cargo compartment of mine.
Labeling SUVs as ‘unsafe’ when you are driving around at 70 mph in a plastic car the size of a shoebox makes about as much sense as training Chihuahuas to be guard dogs.
*[sub]FWIW, my husband’s little S-10 pick-up survived being sideswiped by an 18-wheeler traveling 60+ mph, and my husband sustained only bruises and strained muscles. We refused to let the S-10 be scrapped and made the insurance company repair it (the resale value on the S-10 is about $2500 - nowhere near a Suburban, but still waaaay more than the VW). A few years ago my sister-in-law broadsided a 2000 lb. pregnant cow at about 60 mph while driving a full-size Chevrolet pick-up. The truck was totaled (once again, because repairs were so expensive), but my sister-in-law’s worst injury was a bruised knee and a bump on the head. Neither she nor my brother have driven anything smaller than a full-sized pick-up since.[/sub]
*[sub]Although my first Suburban had an 18-inch ground clearance, smacked into a figurative brick wall at 40+ mph, and made a 90 degree spin when the other car’s momentum snatched the front around, * it did not roll over. The tires didn’t explode or anything either - all four tires were still in fine shape the next day, although the front ones pointed sideways instead of forward.[/sub]
I’m not too fond of SUV’s, but I’m not entirely against them either. I can see how they have their use. My girlfriend has a RAV-4, which seems a nice compromise between a “normal” car and an SUV.
I know that modern SUV’s aren’t the tree burners they’re sometimes made out to be.
However, I have some serious doubt about Scylla’s claims with regard to the longevity of the SUV’s. Sturdier than your average Hyundai perhaps, but I doubt the claims of “resources used during the lifetime of the vehicle” are accurate. Using Civics as a counterexample was a particularly bad idea: these engines will easily do 200,000 miles. What’s overengineering, really? Engine mechanics is a dynamic science. 40 years ago, a 5 liter V8 would produce 100 BHP, whereas it can safely provide an output of 400+ BHP these days without compromising its life span. If you want overengineering to the point of great risk, look at the Honda S-2000, for example. 240 BHP from a 2 liter “four banger”, as you’ll call it. As an aside, it’s about the most fun you can have with your pants on. But, it’s a new car, and its longevity is yet to be proven.
This does not apply to your average Honda, Toyota, Volkwagen, what have you. An economical engine does not equal “engine that won’t live to see 200K”. I don’t expect to see a 2002 Explorer on a scrap heap in 2009, but then again, I’d expect that 2002 Accord to be running smoothly as well at that stage.
Furthermore, the running costs of the average SUV are higher. Your own choice, but just because your wife’s Durango is problem-free, doesn’t make it an efficient car. Also, from all people I know with SUV’s (mostly stuff like Grand Cherokees and yes, even 4Runners), the maintenance costs are astonishingly high compared to a smaller car. All that weight has to be accelerated and decelerated: those cars just use up more brake discs, more clutches, et cetera.
Again, I’m not bitching at anyone for owning or driving an SUV - although it would be interesting to see what would happen with them should America have “European” fuel prices. 
But I do object to SUV’s being described as longer-lasting, resource-friendly automobiles. They are, by definition, more resource-intensive than a 4 door Accord with a 2 liter 4 cylinder engine.
As you were.
I’ve always thought the determining factor for length of ownership of a SUV depended on how long that model looked trendy outside the school gates or in the gym car park – totally news to me that the first owners keep them for 10 + years.
Do they continue to depreciate rapidly after the first couple of years…I just don’t know ?
My other assumption has been that all vehicles have a natural, economic-based, life-span: More efficient models come in, cost of maintenance increases, insurance (as a percentage of the assets worth) begins to make ownership less credible…how long before it’s crushed. I don’t see – without explanation – how SUV’s buck this economic fact of life ?
I drive a RAV4, 1997. It had 16,000 miles when I bought it over three years ago. Now it has over a hundred thousand miles (I drive 65 miles round trip every day just for work). The only repair I’ve had to have is a timing belt (which I should have replaced at 60,000) that broke at 83,000 and a water pump that was leaking but maybe would have made it longer. I fully expect to get at least another hundred thousand, maybe more. When it’s time to get another vehicle, I’ll buy the same thing.
I would not buy one of the larger SUVs because I have enough sense to realize that I could not handle it on a daily basis, same as with a big truck. They make me nervous driving them as I’m afraid that my perception would be off. So I stick to the smaller version. So what does all this rambling mean? It means that it’s the driver at fault most of the time and not the vehicle. It’s your choice to drive what you want, but it’s also your duty and responsibility to others to drive what you can handle best.