I don’t hate all SUV’s. I like the old (late 90’s) Pathfinders. But I feel we are moving in a dangerous direction
Some people have a need for large vehicles. Some people simply follow the herd, or worse, get larger vehicles to try to outdo the herd. Everyone knows at least one moron like this. And the people who have the Cadillac and Lexus SUV’s aren’t takin’ em off-road. At least, not the ones in SoCal. Even Ford admitted the Excursion was too fuckin big and discontinued it.
Are fuel economy and functionality mutually exclusive? I don’t think so, and I think we can do better. I think that if we demand better fuel economy, the manufacturers will respond. That’s all I’m saying.
The conspiracy theorist in me thinks that OPEC has infiltrated the board of directors of all the car makers to increase our dependence.
I think it’s interesting that the cyclist feels threatened by cars and feel like all car drivers are crazy drivers (more or less). Interesting analagy.
If your bigger than me, you are a menace on the road…
Not what I said. If you read on, I said that my anger is directed at car manufacturers that haven’t made SUVs more impact-friendly while maintaining their utility. I never said all cars should be FWD econoboxes. If you want a larger vehicle, fine, but just because I can’t afford to spend twice the money on an SUV for the same legroom as my sport coupe (and yes, I’ve sat in many SUVs, and found this to be the case), that shouldn’t leave me helpless when it comes to a collision with one of them.
I forgot to mention them, and they weren’t the subject at the time. However, I can accept that vehicles like tractor trailers and dump trucks (and transit buses, btw) are necessary to maintain the infrastructure of this country. That there is simply no more efficient way to get people, consumer goods and materials from point A to point B does not bother me. Sure, I’d like to see these vehicles prohibited from small local roads, and in many places, they are. They don’t fit, and they’re a hazard. But it’s not realistic to separate them from cars all the time. As for motorhomes and panel trucks, I have the same beef: why can’t they be made more collision-friendly? Why do manufacturers have to use technology from several decades ago in making these trucks? Besides, I think there are a lot more SUVs out there than there are tractor trailers, dump trucks, or any other large vehicles. And truck drivers are required to have special training, are they not?
And yes, I feel very comfortable labelling SUVs as unsafe (or less safe, at the very least) in and of themselves. Given my small car, on the road, I am for the most part completely safe. I can maneuver nimbly, I have great stopping distance, my ride is comfortable and supple, and were I to get into a collision, I would theoretically be well-protected with unibody construction and crush zones. It is only when SUVs (and other large vehicles, I know) hit the road that my safety is threatened. On the other hand, I could make a case that SUVs are inherently less safe. They are more prone to rollovers when maneuvering, they have increased stopping distance, their ride comfort suffers from antiquated suspension technology, and many (including your Suburban) are based on trucks, which are very stiff, and which provide little shock damping when you hit a large unmoveable object. And unlike with my car, when I get on the road, your vehicle is really not in danger if I hit you.
Your final argument doesn’t stand - you say that driving “a plastic car the size of a shoebox” makes me a hypocrite when I criticize SUVs. Don’t you see that I wouldn’t have to worry as much if SUVs were improved? Just because you choose to drive a large vehicle doesn’t make me crazy for choosing a smaller, more advanced, more comfortable, and (I believe) better-looking vehicle.
Finally, and for the last time, for I’m getting tired of repeating myself - I am not advocating a ban, or even a mild restriction on SUV buying and driving (unless you consider some driver education to be a restriction - see my first post). However, I believe car companies can make these things much safer for all of us, including you SUV drivers. I can accept that in an accident, you place your highest value on your own life and those in your vehicle. I do, too. But to dismiss offhand my fears regarding the disparity in size between your and my vehicle is rather rude. I cannot afford an SUV, nor would I want to drive one. That shouldn’t put me at an automatic disadvantage on the road.
I’ve had it with this thread. I keep repeating myself. You’d think this was GD, for fuck’s sake.
It bothers me that if an SUV hits my nice little economic car, it’s more likely to squish both me and them due to its over-rigid structure, weight, road-clearance (you can drive right over the top of me before rolling yourself, killing us both) or the likelihood to roll. I don’t want to die on the roads, and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone else regardless of what they choose to drive. The “I’m more concerned with my own safety and that of my passengers than I am with yours” is pretty fucking inconsiderate, plus a little naive since your SUV can go a long way to damaging you as much as anyone else you might hit with it.
Bullbars, where they exist, bother me as if you lose control of your vehicle and hit me, again, I’m more likely to suffer serious injury than I would with a minivan. I’m sure there’s as many bad or dangerous drivers in small crappy toyotas as in SUVs, but I know which I’d prefer them driving.
If you need a large vehicle capable of carting large weights, then fine. If you are in a rural area where road-clearance is important, fair enough. If you’re using an SUV to pop to the supermarket/gym/whatever and are a primarily urban user, then it irks me. It irks me that due to being higher up, you have less visibility should a small child run from between parked cars and in front of you, hence making your twice-daily school run to drop off the kids just that little more dangerous for people outside your vehicle. If you are not doing anything that couldn’t be accomplished in a smaller, more economic vehicle, damn right it irks me. The environmental factors are enough of a concern to me that I drive a car with a smaller engine than is convienient for long-distance driving. I get a road-tax break because of this, and would support a proposal to tax larger engine sizes (say, anything over 16l) more heavily, simply because your average family user does not need anything bigger. My tiny VW (which only had 29,000 miles on the clock when I got it) managed over 350,000 miles sailing through all of its yearly emissions tests, and lasted me 6 years with very few costs, only succuming to rust last year because the roads get heavily gritted during the winter where I used to live. It handled like a bigger car, hauled substantial weights during its lifetime, and had such great road-clearance that I know two different rural households with the same model, including a farmer who takes his offroad all the time.
I do support your right to drive whatever you like. I’m very glad that the designs seem to be getting better as I would like you all to be safe when driving, because I am nice that way. But it won’t wipe the older models from the market. It simply means that the older, more-dangerous models go onto the secondhand market all that sooner, making them even more available to people who couldn’t previously have afforded them. The tone of this discussion seems so much like one on the dangers of passive smoking. As a smoker, I won’t smoke around someone who doesn’t want me to, and would more than understand their ire if I ignored it and went right ahead. With your SUV, you are polluting my environment and putting me (and yourself) at risk. I’d like to think you’d understand why I wouldn’t exact be over the moon about this.
A very close friend and former roommate was killed when the bumper of his jeep came through his window. He was at fault in the accident, but it is a bit of a bummer how this behemoth squashed his head. A lower car might have given him a fighting chance.
I don’t and won’t bitch about SUVs here (on the boards in general, outside of this thread), but I don’t like the escalation of car size nor do I like minivans or the new monster pickups. For those that say that pickups have been around forever, not in this size or quantity. Pickups, outside of rural areas, used to be the exception, not the rule. Texas may be an exception to the preceeding.
I especially don’t like that the monster SUVs and Pickup trucks seem to race as fast as they can and lay claim to the highspeed lanes, even when they aren’t travelling at the highest speed possible. Not every SUV/Pickup driver does this but it seems to become the norm here more and more.
I don’t like the obstructed sightlines. I don’t want to have to buy a big ass SUV to be able to see and maintain my childrens’ lives, but that seems to be the trend. I do kind of hope that someone sues the snot out of (insert SUV company here) when a bunch of kids are massacred by a big truck / SUV driving through the compartment of their car. If there is a definable societal cost of owning operating big ass SUVs I hope it is found and brought back to those who begat it.
There have been several good arguments made here in terms of durability of the cars. However there is no reason that a car that is lower to the ground could not be made as well. The gas mileage piece is also a valid point, not to mention that larger vehicles also can carry more passengers and sometimes we should view miles/gallon/passenger mile and not just miles / gallon.
My only problem with SUVs (and minivans), as others stated, is obstruction of view(well, that and parking on city streets). In my neighborhood, there are lots of narrow streets with poor sight lines to begin with. Add large SUVs, minivans, and other vehicles whose windows you can’t see through and hoods you can’t see over and I have to stick the nose of my car blind into traffic, hoping someone will see and honk if approaching.
20 years ago, pickups and vans were the exception. There weren’t many driving on the road or parked on the street. Now, every third vehicle seems to be a SUV or other view obstructing vehicle. I can’t see pedestrians not paying attention darting from the side; I can’t see the idiot about to blow the stop sign.
Here, SUVs and trucks are very, very common. Trucks actually have quite a low depreciation value. When we were looking for a truck to replace our Neon (totaled after hitting the side of an SUV that pulled in front of us), three-year-old F150 extended cabs were still going for $18,000+, even with 40K+ miles. We managed to find a brand new 2000 model for just a few thousand more. So, I’m a big truck driver, and I can’t imagine ever going back to a small car. They just feel so tiny, and being so low to the ground is weird. I realize that people have trouble seeing around me, but were I in a small car, I’d have trouble seeing around everyone because I’m so short. Even in my truck I have trouble seeing around some cars. I haven’t noticed that SUV drivers are any worse than other drivers. Just the other day, someone whipped over into our lane in a small sedan. They were so close that if my husband had blinked at that moment, he wouldn’t have had time to stop before he rear-ended them.
Goddamn right! In fact, I want to point out that my car leaves less horse manure in the road than the buggies of yore! So shut yer yap! My car is an improvement over that, even if I were to yank off the catalytic converter and use leaded gas and fill it up on hot days and never maintain it and drive like a fucking maniac. I mean, why give two shits about doing the best I can for that bitch Mother Earth when I can pat myself on my self-congratulatory back for improving on the standards of a previous generation!
Scylla, you can stuff it up your perfectly-sculpted runner’s ass, but for the record my only complaint about SUVs is the visibility issue. I’ve been stuck unable to make a right turn because an SUV beside me, trying to make a left, has nosed way out and made it impossble for me to see whether any traffic is coming. Annoying. If I were driving a behemoth, I’d ease off how far I stuck my nose out.
Here, SUVs and trucks are very, very common. Trucks actually have quite a low depreciation value. When we were looking for a truck to replace our Neon (totaled after hitting the side of an SUV that pulled in front of us), three-year-old F150 extended cabs were still going for $18,000+, even with 40K+ miles. We managed to find a brand new 2000 model for just a few thousand more. So, I’m a big truck driver, and I can’t imagine ever going back to a small car. They just feel so tiny, and being so low to the ground is weird. I realize that people have trouble seeing around me, but were I in a small car, I’d have trouble seeing around everyone because I’m so short. Even in my truck I have trouble seeing around some cars. I haven’t noticed that SUV drivers are any worse than other drivers. Just the other day, someone whipped over into our lane in a small sedan. They were so close that if my husband had blinked at that moment, he wouldn’t have had time to stop before he rear-ended them.
Scylla, I would venture to say you yourself would admit you can be judgmental of the choices other people make, whether that choice is to be a vegetarian or omnivore, or how much a person should weigh. To have somebody like you come out with the “I can drive whatever the hell I want and it isn’t any of your business” is laughable at best, unbelievably hypocritical at worst.
I don’t want to debate the entire SUV’s are evil crap, it’s officially in the Dead Horse category (although I admit I am very intrigued if you could find a reputable cite regarding the long-term environmental friendliness of SUV’s because you think they last longer), but to say posters shouldn’t express their opinion about what you choose to drive is out and out bullshit. If you go to a restaurant, order a ton of food, eat two bites and throw the rest away, that’s your right. You paid for the food, you have every right to waste as much of it as you want. But don’t try and tell me I can’t opine that you are a wasteful, self-absorbed prick. Kinda like an SUV driver.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by tlw *
Funny how so many people seem to bitch about big bad SUVs being in their face, shining headlights in their eyes, blocking their lines of sight, etc.
Pickup trucks, minivans, regular vans, trucks and busses have all been around a lot longer than SUVs, and all of them have done the exact same thing for time immemorial. Everyone I’ve ever heard make these complaints has been driving long enough to have shared the road with behemoth vehicles from day one, but only SUVs raise this specific point of ire.
[QUOTE]
That’s sort of true, but here’s the thing. I would imagine that there are now a lot more large, visually obstructive vehicles on the road than there were, say, 10 years ago. Also, have you looked at a 10 year old pickup and a new model pickup? The difference in size is enormous. Wider, and definitely taller. That’s the #1 problem I have with SUVs and the like. I just plain can’t see what’s going on ahead of the vehicle, which is not the case with smaller cars.
I’m more than a bit skeptical about the “built to last” argument here. First, comparing anything to cheap Dodge Omnis, K-Cars, and Yugos is pretty ingenuous. Try comparing them to something in the same price/quality range – Honda Accords, Celicas, etc… The big engine => high mileage argument is pretty laughable – lots of small cars with high revving engines are hitting the 200K+ mark. My skepticism is somewhat bolstered by doing a search on (or example) “Dodge Durango transmission” and “Dodge Durango Reliability” in dejanews.
I certainly don’t see many of the original batch of SUVs – the original Monteros, Troopers, and whatever on the road. I’m guessing that they last about exactly as long as the comparable sedan and get junked when the bodies start rotting.
Still, as other people have pointed out, the real problem with SUVs is not their gas guzzling nature. If Scylla’s wife wants to drive a vehicle that’s the worst in its class at 13MPG, then the cost of gasoline will impose its own penalty. The real problem is that of sight lines. Yes, it’s true that there were previously panel trucks and pickups on the road – but now there are many more vehicles blocking sight lines. Many of the SUVs are deliberately designed to make it difficult to see the road ahead with sloped and tinted rear windows that make it impossible to see traffic through them, even if you are seated high enough to do so. This makes the road possibly more dangerous and certainly more stressful for people who can’t see road conditions ahead of them.
The result of the competition for sight lines and crash survivibility results in a nasty game theory sort of competition – I buy a bigger car so I can see over you, and then you buy a bigger car so you can feel comfortable around me, and the result is the latest “Hummer 2” commercial with the female driving a HumVee through the streets, and the caption “Give the men another reason to fear you.”
I seriously doubt that Ford’s CEO pulled it because it was too big. It was more than likely pulled because it wasn’t selling, which means the general public decided it was too big. This is a good thing. There’s just no damn reason for something that huge to be on the street if it isn’t stopping at every other corner and taking transfers. I’m reasonably sure the Hummer wouldn’t sell if it wasn’t ,well, a Hummer.
That being said, I am the owner of a recently acquired Explorer Sport Trac (the one with the short bed on the back). I came to this vehicle from a Chevy Malibu. I must admit, I spent a lot of time the first few weeks backing up because I pulled into someone’s line of sight, and I still flick off my headlights if I can count follicles on the back of someone’s head when I pull up behind them. I give a shit about other drivers. I can see more than most around me, and I recognize that fact. I try to be courteous, and I am learning that I have a lot of weight to throw around - hardly anyone cuts me off anymore.
But to come here and be called an asshole sight unseen and then be told to grin and bear it is just wrong. I made my choice at the dealership based on my needs. I need the bed and the space in the cab. I didn’t want to go any bigger than I did based on my own ability to handle it. How many of the SUV haters out there make everyday choices based on what everyone else needs? Do you not take the last chocolate donut because someone else might want it? Do you not tie up main office copier to get your own project done when others have to work too? Do you not come to the SDMB during peak hours to save bandwidth?
I agree that every vehicle should be made safer. I’ll probably trade model years on my truck after they add more airbags and disc brakes. But just how much am I supposed to worry about your safety? Is it realistic to expect most humans to put other humans first?
And why is it okay to lump all SUV drivers into one category and generalize, but it isn’t okay to use racial stereotypes? I’m black, too - does that mean I eat fried chicken in my SUV while listening to rap too loud? (I guess that would make me a bad driver, heh.)
There are road annoyances from all sections. My personal pet peeve is loud mufflers on motorcycles. But I don’t automatically think every motorcycles rider is an asshole, and I don’t encourage others to think that either. My rage comes on a case-by-case basis.
Why is that so hard to apply to SUV owners?
I mentioned minivans and large pickups as being equally bothersome as SUVs. Tractor trailers are a different matter; I’ll get to this below.
tlw:
I think I’ve been pretty consistent in mentioning minivans in the same breath as SUVs. I usually try to mention large pickups as well, but I sometimes forget.
But as Shibboleth and D_Odds have both mentioned, there are a lot more SUVs, minivans, and large pickups than there used to be, and this (combined with the visibility problems they create) is the heart of the matter, AFAIAC.
There have always been tractor-trailers on the road. On most roads (I-81 being an exception), they are grossly outnumbered by the passenger cars. They’re rare enough that they’re generally pretty easy to work around. Also, their numbers are constrained by the reality that they’re working vehicles; essentially no one drives a big rig just for fun. As long as they drive courteously, I have no beef with them.
There have always been vans, pickups, etc. too. And they used to mostly be working vehicles as well, so once again, there weren’t very many of them; you could work around them.
These days, though, there’s a whole lot of SUVs and minivans on the road. If you change lanes to get out from behind a minivan, you’re just as likely to find yourself behind an SUV. As a result, it takes a lot more work to get to where you can see ahead than it used to.
I certainly agree that some people realistically need SUVs or minivans. But there’s no way that they can constitute more than a small percentage of the people who are actually driving them. Consider my beef directed at them, whoever they may be, and at Detroit for having gone to the mat to preserve the regulatory loophole that makes it preferable for them to build minivans and SUVs as opposed to traditional passenger cars and station wagons.
racinchikki:
It’s always a possibility, but I seem to follow at about the same distance as everyone else on the road. And I try to leave more room when I’m behind bad-visibility vehicles of any sort.
The fact is that, in heavy traffic on a straight stretch of road, you’ve got to leave enough room for two or three cars to cut in front of you before you’re far back enough behind an SUV or minivan so that you can see what’s happening in your lane in front of the minivan/SUV. Which negates one of the reasons for leaving room, of course, since they will cut in.
The difference between standard-profile passenger cars and SUVs, minivans, etc. is simple: if I’m behind a laneful of the former, I can see both through and around them. Around, because they’ve got a lower profile that I can see around (somewhat, anyway) as I drive my Accord. And through, because their front and back windows are at roughly the same height as mine, and are rarely tinted heavily.
As a result, I can see what’s happening several cars ahead in crowded traffic, so if people start braking a half-dozen cars ahead, I’m already slowing down by the time the braking chain reaction gets back to me.
But if I’m following behind SUVs and minivans, the larger profile eliminates visibility around, and the combination of (frequently) higher windows and almost invariably heavily tinted rear windows makes it next to impossible to see through the SUV or minivan. (Large pickup owners don’t often tint their windows, but they frequently go for decorative mirrored rear windows. Same result.)
SUV and minivan owners, can you clue me in on the tinting? (This isn’t a rant, this is a serious question.) It appears to me that nine out of 10 minivans and SUVs have the same heavy tint job on all the windows except the front windshield and front seat side windows. If this weren’t the case, I could see through most of the smaller SUVs and minivans, and I’d have to spend a lot less time and energy getting out from behind them, and I would feel a lot less need to grouse about SUVs, etc. So do you all ask for that tint job, or do they just come that way unless you specifically ask for clear glass?
racinchikki again:
Not the problems I bitch about.
Honestly, the SUV and minivan drivers around here are no better or worse than the other drivers. It’s simply that I can’t see through them. (I’m all for D_Odds’s proposal for transparent SUVs and minivans. If they only were transparent, I’d have one less thing to bitch about.) It’s got everything to do with the car, and only occasionally does it have anything to do with the driver.
[sub]Part of my commute route is a two-lane road that briefly opens up to four lanes in a couple of places. If I’m behind an SUV or minivan when the road widens, I make an extra effort to pass it before we’re back to two lanes again. Pretty much the only time SUV driver behavior bothers me is when they get pissed at me for passing them, when all I’m trying to do is be able to see for the next few miles. Fortunately, this doesn’t happen too often.[/sub]
One sunny afternoon, I was walking down a sidewalk to get some lunch. Running through the sidewalk was an entrance to an underground parking garage. A guy driving a Sports Utility Bohemoth pulled in. There was a clear indication of the maximum height clearance into the garage. With an ear-piercing “scrinch” the SUV driver got stuck. He clearly didn’t know the size of his own vehicle. Or he couldn’t read.
He looked very befuddled.
Then Mr. Important pulled up behind him in his $8274076 sports car. He was extraordinarily impatient. Judging from his gold jewelry, rolex, etc. it was clear that his time was more valuable than anyone else’s. Naturally he pulled as close to the SUV as possible (read: practically under it).
Mr. Important honked his horn. He looked at his rolex. He sighed. He honked again.
Mr. SUV, more confused than ever, did the only thing he could. He backed up.
I feel torn. The truth is that I am a total hypocrite.
On the other side of the equation, your choices for cites don’t support that and simply suggest that you are somewhat dim.
There’s this thing called facetiousness, you see.
Coldfire:
I dunno. I took great care to be scientific and accurate in my original post concerning the durability of SUVs versus compact cars, and went so far as to spend a whole 2 minutes thumbing through the Auto-locator magazine looking for old cars, trucks and suvs.
The fact is that I don’t see a lot of 80s Civics in there or on the road, and my opinion of the things is that the quality of those cars is severely overrated.
I know personally that when I’m driving down the road there is one vehicle that always scares me when I see it, and it’s not an SUV.
What scares me, and what I think represents a real danger are those tricked out rice burners driven recklessly by teenagers.
'Prolly there’s a good cite somewhere about the durability of various vehicles. For the time being I tend to think resale value makes my point. Old SUVs are still out there and still retain value. Just don’t see many old economy cars in the pages or on the road.
Finagle:
I think it’s more a matter that every isuzu and Montero is a piece of junk, SUVS and cars.
Scylla, I see your point about resale values, etc. Assuming your points are correct (and I have no reason to assume they’re not), then I can see why you’d want to own an SUV.
But that’s hardly a good argument to convince SUV-haters. “Wow, that car-crushing monster may kill me, but the owner has made a great investment, so my tough luck” is hardly something that an SUV-hater is likely to say. You’re not likely to win anyone to your side with that line of reasoning.
And let me just add to the pile about line-of-sight and the fact that there are far more large vehicles on the road today than 10 years ago. What was once an inconvenience is now a menace.
Not to mention the extra wear and tear that such vehicles put on the roads. We ALL pay for that.
Are all SUV drivers maniacs? Yes. Around here, it is safest to assume that ALL drivers are maniacs. It’s just that those in huge vehicles present a much greater danger because of size.
And in anticipation of people telling me that I have made my choice to drive a tin can – no, I have not. I have made the choice to walk, thankyouverymuch.
Sorry I didn’t have the time, energy, or extra hamsters (the board is excruciatingly slow today) to go through your 6,200 posts to find the perfect examples of your penchant for judging the choices of others, but I’m quite confident that the examples given were not completely facetious on your part. Often, when called to the mat, you respond with “Oh, just having a bit of fun.” (I’m sure that worked on chaucer when you mocked her with you BO thread). I apologize I didn’t get the “Best of Scylla’s Pronouncements.” Maybe you can put one together for us.
We agree on something. That’s a start. Now about that “dim” comment…
It is my understanding that part of the reason window-tinting is so popular is that it prevents casual passers-by from seeing what’s in the SUV or Minivan. Since these vehicles have no area of total concealment (like a trunk found in other types of cars) it’s a bigger issue. You know, for valuables. Or the bodies of kids who were driving riceburners.