That is funnnny A Girl, you talk about doing a dumb thing - buying a convertible is really buying less car for more money. Yup, that’s smart.
Tolko yeslie ti smotrish skolko mashina stoyet za kajdye kilogram! 
At last we disagree!.. Choose your weapon. <…reaching for kalashnikov…>
Dazhe esli ona iz zolota zdelana - bez krishi, eto gadost!
En garde!
Heard some interesting things in this thread:
even sven: If everyone drove standard cars there wouldn’t be any SUVs to need to be safe from.
WTF is a standard car? Do you drive a “standard” car? Should we all drive the same car? That’s pretty much the only way we’ll all be “equal” in a crash, which seems to be what everyone wants.
Hastur: I’ve seen countless SUVs not signal when changing lanes and almost sideswipe cars, zoom through stop signs, and go around cars, drive onto a sidewalk, and keep going to get where ever they want a little faster.
I’ve seen countless other cars do this, too. What’s your point? The greates offenders, in my experiences, seem to be small sporty cars. Well, maybe not the driving on the sidewalk stuff, but the rest of it.
barton: There are plenty of large, comfortable sedans available on the market that get better mileage, handle better, and run ten grand or more less than an SUV.
This may well be true, but it ain’t true of my “large, conmfortable sedan”. Am I now not allowed to drive my car?
a girl: a couple of SUVs tangling while vying to take over top spot in a merging lane makes everybody chuckle. and You did a dumb thing, but maybe next year you can get that nice convertible.
That’s because no one gets hurt. But two Geo Metros crashing while vying for a space? Or, God forbid, my Cadillac DeVille and your Metro crashing? That’s a little different now, isn’t it? And a girl, you are hereby prohibited from ever making an argument about the roll-over potential of SUVs. Convertibles are not safe, not at all. Go ask an engineer in the auto industry what they have to do make convertibles safe enough to be on the roads. By their very natures, they aren’t safe.
It seems to me that you really can’t make an argument about SUVs being more dangerous with any degree of logic. Yes, they’re bigger. They protect their occupants better. They may be more dangerous for other people. Too bad for the other people. People who drive Geo Metros definitely aren’t being nice to the policy holders of their insurance companies. You have any idea how much death benefits are?
You can make the argument that SUVs are worse for the environment. But if you do that, stay consistent and throw out a whole bunch of other cars.
SUV drivers are bad drivers? Maybe, but c’mon, guys. We need to bad together to fight the common enemy: Minivan drivers.
People spend more than they should, and buy a bigger vehicle than they “need”. So?
I’d be more more willing to encourage legislation to outlaw the manufacture of small plastic toy cars (read Toyota Corolla, Ford Focus, etc.). Who’s with me?
Necros -
I’ve got a standard car. Two of them actually. 5-speeds, both. 
Sili -
Come on now, people steal aluminum wheels off cars. What do you think would happen with a gold convertable… it would be gone in a flash.
But seriously, you must see the car enthusiast’s point of view. For instance - I drive two euro sedans. Neither one is particularly easy on the gas. Both are pretty new and are compliant with the latest emissions standards. Both have excellent crash statistics as far as protecting passengers and driver. In most respects I cannot make a case against SUV’s; not in fuel consumption nor cost. I don’t even feel particularly justified in making utility much of an issue. I suppose I could be equally successful in driving american or japanese sedans which cost far less.
My main objection is this. Because some of the SUV’s being built today are so exceptionally large (Suburban, Excursion, Expedition, Tahoe XL, etc…) that they not only present a road hazzard in a collision but simply because of their sheer size. Like minivans they obscure the view for even the largest sedan type vehicles. Unlike minivans, they present an increased threat in case of collision with smaller vehicles (which includes a majority of private passenger vehicles on the roads).
Now I am not here to sing the praises of convertibles or econoboxes. They both come with their own set of built in hazards. The difference is that they are not a danger to other cars and the consumers of these higher risk cars knowingly accept the risk of purchasing these cars.
Also, you cannot compare the super sized SUV to a UPS delivery vehicle, or cube van, or even a semi trailer. The latter are single purpose vehicles used for commerce and are uniquely suited to their roles. They are used to their full intended capacity virtually on a daily basis. Not the case at all for a majority of very large SUV’s.
I don’t want to restrict people from buying any damn car or truck they want to. I am simply interested in raising the concience level of most buyers and trying to make them more aware of the wisdom of their purchase in this particular area, and mainly because this is the one purchase they make that can have a direct impact on me and my family’s safety.
Understand I am looking to build awarness not generate new gov’t legislation and control. We all know the consequences of the latter.
Necros, if you think it is alright to drive a vehicle that has a high potential for decapitateing other people, and that is just “too bad”, your a jerk. That proves my argument. Additionally, I wish that you were the one in charge of telling people that their family members were decapitated by an SUV, and that is just too bad. They should have had a higher income, perhaps they might have survived.
I was driving through a rather affluent area of San Francisco last night and saw 25 SUV in the space of four blocks! That doesn’t even count the onees in garages. Is anyone prepared to defend that 25 people in that area have large families, go off-road on a regular basis and use it to haul wood to their mansion?
As a society, we are willing to accept the safety risks presented to us by buses, UPS trucks and semis because te benefits outweigh the risks. We are not, however, willing to accept the risks so that yupped-out commuters can have their status symbol.
I’m sorry burningbush, I’ll have to disagree with your argument. As a society, we seem to be buying more of them, not less. (That in itself does not make it right, but since you say society ‘does not accept’ SUVs, I’ll point this out to counter your statement).
Also not valid is the arguement against ‘yupped-out…status symbols’. There are so many status symbols in our society, that I could not even begin to list them. OK, maybe a few - houses, golf clubs, leather jackets, private jets, tennis shoes with blinking lights, etc. Status symbols are part of almost every household, so lets not go down that track.
The sofety issue is a very valid one, but if you look at a few previous posts, I’ve brought up examples of how any car on the road can be just as much of a danger, it’s the driver that determines how that car will be driven. That’s all.
QuickSilver - OK, gold convertibles are out of the question, maybe Silver, Quick and Silver.
tradesilicon, thanks for explaining it in other words so that burningbush could understand. I must not have made myself clear.
burningbush, I’m more than happy to tell those families that their friend/family member was decapitated by an SUV. I honestly don’t see much difference between you dying because my Cadillac crushes your Geo into a soup can and you dying because you get decapitated by an SUV, but maybe they do. Hey! Maybe if we all drove Metros, we could all be happy. Yep, let’s bring everyone down to the least common denominator of safety. That was, no one’s safe, but at least your feelings don’t get hurt (or decapitated:)).
Can anyone in this thread make a convincing argument against SUVs that doesn’t apply to other cars also? And can anyone dare to do it without the underlying “class warfare” attitude that burningbush demonstrates? I’ve been looking, but I don’t think I’ve seen it here yet.
Agreed. But a set of gold plated golf clubs with jewel encrusted handles does not present a danger to my family. Only the owner who wonders onto a golf course in a bad neighbourhood. (Are there golf courses in bad neighbourhoods?)
Again, qualifiably true. A good driver goes a long way to contribute to everyone’s safety on public roads. But, an SUV does not handle like a car. It does not have the same stopping distance or maneuverability. In situations where an accident is simply unavoidable (and the SUV drive need not be at fault necessarily) the sheer mass and momentum of the SUV will undoubtedly cause more damage to an average sized sedan then another car in the same situation.
That’s how I prefer my cars. 
I told you before, it’s not class warfare. If this was a class thing, we’d be bitching about Mercedeses (sp?) or Ferraris, I mean, there are a lot of fancier, “classier” cars out there than SUVs! SUVs are not all that unaffordable, pal, I hate to tell ya. (Well, maybe not for a college student or something, but you know what I mean.) The reason we’re complaining is most people (not all) drive their SUVs in an unsafe manner. They drive them like cars, yet they are not “like” cars. The headlights of these vehicles get in my rearview mirror because the driver behind me does not have the courtesy or knowledge to stay back a little farther. Oftentimes I’ve seen people driving SUVs weaving in and out of traffic. Well, when they cut in front of me, then I can’t see what’s going on ahead of them. If the driver is distracted and has to slam on his brakes at the last minute, I have less of a reaction time as well, whereas if I could see in front of him I’d know better what was coming. Trucks and buses usually stay to the slow lane so they’re aren’t a problem like this, plus they are professional drivers, and SUVs should be in the slow lane with them, in my opinion.
As far as convertibles rolling over, sure, you may get decaptiated, but I haven’t heard of any rolling convertibles lately. (Doesn’t mean there aren’t any, of course.) Convertibles are made lower to the ground. I’m no auto engineer, but I do know the lower the car, the less likely it will roll. My un-husband spun out in his '99 Pontiac Firebird. He says he was doing 70 when a truck pulled into his lane. (Chances are un-hubby was in the blind spot, but that’s another story. :)) His car spun at least twice, went over the curb of the freeway and down into a ditch full of iceplant where that car teetered on two wheels then finally crashed back down to the ground, tire side down. The cop said if he had been in an SUV, he wouldn’t have survived even the spin, the car would have rolled over right on the freeway and he’d have been seriously injured. In this case, the car was full of iceplant and mud, but otherwise, car and driver escaped unharmed. He was driving a lower, safer car and was unharmed.
Some SUV drivers still think they’re driving smaller cars and they aren’t. If you like your big car so much and want to be safe, drive your SUV in the big car lane and leave the rest of us Geo-loving maniacs in peace! (As opposed to pieces! haha!)
I have a feeling driving an SUV is kind of like sitting on a phone book as a kid, remember that? All the sudden you feel so big, and special!
Give me a convertible any day!
A girl
a girl, I wasn’t talking about the rollover risk of convertibles. I was talking about the inherent stability of the design. Convertibles are more difficult to make safe because in the process of transforming a normal car to a convertible, you lose a lot of the structural integrity of the well-designed frame.
Again, I’m not hearing any arguments about why SUVs are bad but other vehicles aren’t. Any of your “too high, lights in my rearview mirror” arguments can be equally applied to pickups. No one’s complaining about them.
Every other argument really seems to boil down to SUV drivers. They seem to go like this:
- There are bad drivers out there.
- Some of them drive big, heavy vehicles.
- Big, heavy vehicles cause more damage.
- So, let’s get rid of big, heavy vehicles.
Huh? Don’t you think we should maybe just teach people to drive better? These bad drivers are still going to be out there, otherwise, and next you’ll be complaining about some other kind of car you don’t like for whatever reason. There are bad drivers of those, too. So, let’s get rid of them!
It’s the whole tool/user issue again. Do you blame the tool or the user for the bad things that happen in the irresponsible use of a tool?
QuickSilver and A Girl, you both make the point that SUVs don’t haaandle like cars. Well sure, that’s one that no one is arguing. But it’s up to the driver to know what he’s getting into - a bicycle does not handle like a Harley, so what? They’r still both on the roads. No matter what car you get into it will be a bit different than the last one you drove. I could not agree more that those who drive an SUV as if it was a sedan are a danger - but the problem isnot the SUV per se, it’s the uneducated driver.
At any rate, we’re starting to go around in circles on this, so I’ll bow out of this part of the discussion. Have fun boys and girls, and remember to tip your waitress.
Hah! You havn’t seen me trying to use a golf club!
Does it have to be one to the exclusion of the other?
Some users are not proficient in the use of some tools. True.
Some tools are not well suited to the job at hand. Again True.
What we are trying to express here is that the SUV, particularly the Ford Executioner type of SUV, is not well suited for the job it is most often used for - a commuter vehicle with occupancy rate of one or two passengers.
Sili -
For the record, I have similar objections to particularly large pick-me-ups that haul around a box full of air most of the time. I don’t object very much to the little pick-me-ups (and SUV’s for that matter) because they are so similar in mass and size to an average sedan. I do wish they would not be so obstructive to my view of the road though… oh, well.
See you on the golf course… I’ll be the guy playing with the hockey stick.
Okay, I’m out of here too. I really can’t explain it other than it seems to be a preponderance of SUV drivers that do these things. Pick up trucks qualify, but I don’t know, they don’t seem to do it like the SUVs do.
I also want to say that Chrysler Sebrings are built from the ground up as a convertible and they are way cool.
: )
A girl <— wants a 2001 Sebring or EV1.
QuickSilver said:
You can make the argument that most SUVs are only used by one or two passengers, but from what I’ve seen, that’s not true. The people who drive these things are putting people into them. Maybe not 43 seated comfortably as the manufacturer recommends, but at least three, four or five, plus kids’ backpacks or soccer balls or whatever.
If you’re a city courier that handles a package at a time, a Chevy Zip Code probably isn’t the best “tool” for you. But if you’re a mom with three kids? I’m not sure I would be so willing to jump all over her for using the wrong tool for the job.
We can sit around and disect each case on it’s merrits:
For instance, a mom of three can easily fit the three kids into the back of a Volvo wagon with comfort and safety. She can fit three more in the rumble seat in the back which faces backwards.
Bottom line, not a very long time ago. Say 10 or 15 years, the SUV was a virtual unknown. Parents still had 3 and 4 kids. They still managed to get these kids to swim lessons and baseball games in the safety and comfort of their sedan or wagon. It’s just that the advent of a luxury SUV and the reluctance of American car manufacturers to spiff up the image of the fake wood sided station wagon has all but driven people to purchase that Chev Suburban. If the auto manufacturers had upgraded and marketed the station wagon in the same aggresive fashion as they have the SUV, we would not be having this particular discussion right now. I maintain that a large part of the blame must be placed at the feet of the auto industry. They were grossly irresponsible and continue to be so.
I will be the first to agree with you that some people actually use them to their full extent, however, you will be hard pressed to convince me that a majority of SUV owners do so on a regular enough basis to justify their purchase.
Now hold on, Mr. Volvo. It was NOT SUVs that killed station wagons. It was minivans.
Yes, you are probably right, but it’s almost the long weekend and I absolutely refuse to maintain any consistancy in my arguments at this point…
So how come that mom and three kids are riding around in a Suburban rather than a Plymouth Voyager? I am specifically talking about my neighbours now who own three kids under the age of 10 and three SUV’s ranging from a Suburban to a Cherokee. The do not have a boat, they do not have a big dog, they do not tow trailers, they do not carpool. How come, huh? Huh, smart guy? Huh?
(Sorry I’m just a little giddy now…)
OK, Mr. Morally Superior Guy, lemme ask you this. Which one would you rather drive?
Dodge Caravan: V-6, 3000lbs, seats 6 comfortably, as safe as a car in collisions, looks like a giant freaking egg.
Jeep Grand Cherokee: V-8, 3500lbs, seats 5 comfortably, safer than a car in collisions, looks pretty reasonable.
Of course, I’d rather drive neither of these. I’m a sedan man myself. I have to laugh, too, when I see a Ford Hugeorama trying to get into a parking space over and over again, and then, when it finally parks (hanging over the lines), some 5’4" chick hops out. It’s goofy, I’d admit. But berate them for being goofy, not for being in some way “bad.”
And everyone else who’s listening to this…uh…hello? Hello? Is there anyone else here?
Hm.
Hey, A Girl…I was driving in my SUV this weekend and guess what, a Sebring convertible was on my tail! It was so close I couldn’t see the car’s grill, being somewhat higher! Which leads me to think…whenever I’m behind a tractor-trailer, I generally stay pretty far away, and I am able see the cars in front since the roads are not always straight.
Anyways, I guess you don’t have a Sebring yet, so it couldn’t be you.