Swedes: attitude to Assange charges?

[Quercus]

So, Julian Assange is being held by the British government for allegedly removing a condom during a consensual sexual encounter in Sweden. This is based on a Swedish prosecuter issuing an international arrest warrant.

The attitude in the U.S. generally runs from “Look, I don’t care whether anything’s true or it’s legal as long as someone is getting that terrorist traitor hippie stealer of precious bodily fluids” to “I don’t know what happened; we should let the legal system run its course, but there certainly are questions since this seems kind of unusual” to “This can’t be a coincidence that the biggest single embarasser of the US Government just happens to have an international warrant on him.”
So what’s the Swedish attitude (or range of attitudes)? Is this seen as an ordinary case? or maybe not quite proportionate response, but OK because international playboy celebrities need to get sent a message that they can’t assault Swedish women? Are there lots of Swedes who want to see Assange taken down, legally or not? Do people think the US is somehow behind this?

[Floater]

I’d say the general feeling is “Who cares?”. He is wanted by the police who want to question him about two alleged rapes and he has chosen to keep away.

The background to it all is, as I understand it, that he had had unprotected sex with two different women who got cold feet and began to wonder if they might have caught anything from him. They both turned to the police to ask for help about getting in touch with him and demand that he do a health check-up. A female police officer handling the case persuaded them to file a rape report and that’s where it’s at.

[Juggler]

The newspapers are having a field day with it, just because the world notices Sweden and newspapers love that.

I agree with Floater that the general population don’t care that much except some conspiracy theorists and Pirate Party individuals who are very upset.

I would like to see the arrest warrant since it has been very confusing what really is alleged to have happened.

[DrDeth]

@Quercus

So, Julian Assange is being held by the British government for allegedly removing a condom during a consensual sexual encounter in Sweden. This is based on a Swedish prosecuter issuing an international arrest warrant.

No, that’s what his lawyer claims. The alleged crimes are rape, sexual molestation and unlawful coercion. (wiki) “*Swedish prosecutor Marianne Ny … filed charges of rape, sexual molestation and unlawful coercion.[135][136] Assange denies the charges, which his lawyer described as stemming from a “dispute over consensual but unprotected sex”,[136] which may constitute rape under the Swedish law.” *

You are blithely accepting what his lawyer claims as a defence is the truth.

[DrDeth]

Heres more info from the wiki discussion pages*:"3) that in that court, “Gemma Lindfield, for the Swedish authorities, told (City of Westminster magistrates court) Assange was wanted in connection with four allegations.
She said the first complainant, Miss A, said she was victim of ‘unlawful coercion’ on the night of 14 August in Stockholm. The court heard Assange is accused of using his body weight to hold her down in a sexual manner.
The second charge alleged Assange ‘sexually molested’ Miss A by having sex with her without a condom when it was her “express wish” one should be used.
The third charge claimed Assange ‘deliberately molested’ Miss A on 18 August ‘in a way designed to violate her sexual integrity’.
The fourth charge accused Assange of having sex with a second woman, Miss W, on 17 August without a condom while she was asleep at her Stockholm home.” [11] "*

[Wakinyan]

There has been some questioning whether the accusation is under the influence of US intelligence, but the consensus is that Swedish judicial system, while rather far from perfect, wouldn’t give in to such involvement; which any serious intelligence agency most likely know. So among serious commentators nobody believes in any conspiracy.

However, the whole story is rather embarrassing to Sweden, because the accusation was withdrawn, and then – after Assange left Sweden – was risen again, after it was appealed by the prosecutor. It made the whole affair more “messy” than it needed to be, and considering the general mess around Assange, it becomes more remarkable than it would ordinary be. Some foreign press – I believe it was British – called Sweden a “banana republic” because of this.

“The man on the (Swedish) street”, though, I don’t believe care much or know much about it.

[Diceman]

The fourth charge accused Assange of having sex with a second woman, Miss W, on 17 August without a condom while she was asleep at her Stockholm home.” [11] "

That sounds like rape to me.

In the first incident, it sounds like Assange wouldn’t stop when the woman wanted him to.

[DrDeth]

@Diceman

That sounds like rape to me.

In the first incident, it sounds like Assange wouldn’t stop when the woman wanted him to.

And in the second, had sex when she was unable to consent, and against her wish to only have sex with a condom. Both seem like rape, not only in Sweden but in the USA. It is interesting the Assanges lawyers have managed to get a lot of dudes accepting their claims as the facts. :dubious:

[Turek]

@Diceman

That sounds like rape to me.

In the first incident, it sounds like Assange wouldn’t stop when the woman wanted him to.

Which is *also *rape.

[mittu]

@Floater

I’d say the general feeling is “Who cares?”. He is wanted by the police who want to question him about two alleged rapes and he has chosen to keep away.

I don’t think that is fair, as soon as the warrant was filed correctly he turned himself into the police and informed police of his whereabouts when he arrived in the UK. I would say he has done all he can to assist police with the matter.

[DrDeth]

@mittu

I don’t think that is fair, as soon as the warrant was filed correctly he turned himself into the police and informed police of his whereabouts when he arrived in the UK. I would say he has done all he can to assist police with the matter.

This is not correct. The Swedish Warrant was issued 11/18. He has refused to return to Sweden to answer the charges. The European Arrest Warrant (EAW) was also issued around 12/1. The UK asked for some clarifications, then after they agreed to honor the EAW, then and only then did he turn himself in. He has refused to return to Sweden since 11/04. The warrant was filed correctly in Sweden all along, but yes, there was a procedural error for the UK version.

[mittu]

@DrDeth

This is not correct. The Swedish Warrant was issued 11/18. He has refused to return to Sweden to answer the charges. The European Arrest Warrant (EAW) was also issued around 12/1. The UK asked for some clarifications, then after they agreed to honor the EAW, then and only then did he turn himself in. He has refused to return to Sweden since 11/04. The warrant was filed correctly in Sweden all along, but yes, there was a procedural error for the UK version.

If I lived in the UK and found out the Swedish police wanted to talk to me I wouldn’t pay to fly myself back either, I don’t think anyone would. When he left Sweden the matter had been dropped so he did nothing wrong, if they later decide they want to talk to him it should be up to them to go to him, not the other way around.

He turned himself in as soon as the warrant in the UK was valid, he did everything he could reasonably be expected to do to co-operate.

[Quercus]

@DrDeth

And in the second, had sex when she was unable to consent, and against her wish to only have sex with a condom. Both seem like rape, not only in Sweden but in the USA. It is interesting the Assanges lawyers have managed to get a lot of dudes accepting their claims as the facts. :dubious:

Wheras some other dudes seem to be accepting the prosecutor’s claims as facts…

But let’s stick to the OP, which is about public opinion, not YOUR opinion. Heck I’ll broaden to to the whole of Europe. What do (significant groups of) Germans and Spaniards think of this?
Justice running its course, just with a high-profile defendant? Scandanavian nanny-state running amock and criminalizing normal man-woman relations? Thinking that if it was an English or Russian court, it would of course be a setup, but you can trust a Swedish official?

[Wakinyan]

Back to the OP, one thing I do notice in Swedish news media is that nobody seems to really take the actual accusation of rape too seriously, which is unusual of this country. My impression is that if it would be… let’s say Tom Jones or some other celebrity who recently visited the country, there would be a general agreement that the guy must stand trial for this crime right here and no and there is no talking out of it. Sweden is an extremely politically correct country and such an accusation is in itself very compromising and might raise a general debate about how men with power are allowed to use women and so forth, and the guy would be in a rather hot spot in the public discourse for the accusation of rape only. But as I said, that sort of debate or general talk has not happened concerning Assange.

It might be that Assange himself is considered as some sort of politically correct hero himself, so this affair leave the usual PC guys in a limbo here. It is rather assumed or hinted at that it is some kind of setup is going on, but it is sort of un-PC to say either way. Therefore, as it seems to me, neither the assumed guilt-by-association nor the conspiracy is outspoken in media. While the media follows the development naturally – it is quite a story – no one takes sides right now. My impression is that in Sweden it is of outmost importance to be politically correct, therefore it is generally plagued by a cowardly discussion atmosphere, which is exactly what we are seeing right now.

So, to answer the OP, “nobody” wants Assange to be taken down, because it is good to support him, but nobody wants to take side with someone who has been accused of rape, so no one is neither taking his side either.

[DrDeth]

@Quercus

Wheras some other dudes seem to be accepting the prosecutor’s claims as facts…

But let’s stick to the OP, which is about public opinion, not YOUR opinion.

Indeed, no. There are two separate things; what the prosecution’s charges are and what the defences *claims *are. Either or even both may not be the truth. Certainly, even with what the defence claims, it appears Assange may indeed be guilty of some crimes under Swedish Code.

However, here is a Swedish blog about the incidents. I can’t read much of it, but there is some Swedish opinion, there’s even comments at the bottom.

Sverige bakom offentlig efterlysning

Here are some English Language Swedish sources:

Stockholm News

The comments are international, but seem to run both pro& con Assange. Certainly he’s a signifcant news item.

Here’s what the Swedish lawyer for the victims sez "“*Assange lying”

Lawyer Claes Borgström, who is the legal counsellor for the two young women who Assange is suspected of having sexual assaulted, today took the opportunity to express his anger at how Assange has described the crime suspicions.

“Assange is lying when he says that my clients are part of a US-led conspiracy against him and Wikileaks. He knows very well that they do not have such connections," said Borgström to the news agency TT.

He believes that the Wikileaks founder with his claims once again violates his clients.

“They are two ordinary Swedish girls, who admired Assange for his work. Now, they are under an incredibly intense pressure with media in their hallways and constant phone calls," Borgström said.

He explains that many people believe that rape is when someone jumps out from behind a bush and attacks an unknown woman with serious violence. But there are other ways of forcing sex with another person against their will, something that thousands of women have been through.

“Now I want him to be prosecuted for what he did and the court may decide which crime is involved.”"*

Here’s an Australian article:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/wikileaks/elvis-of-the-internet-is-one-cool-dude-in-court/story-fn775xjq-1225967892481

[DrDeth]

@Wakinyan

Back to the OP, one thing I do notice in Swedish news media is that nobody seems to really take the actual accusation of rape too seriously, which is unusual of this country. My impression is that if it would be… let’s say Tom Jones or some other celebrity who recently visited the country, there would be a general agreement that the guy must stand trial for this crime right here and no and there is no talking out of it. Sweden is an extremely politically correct country and such an accusation is in itself very compromising and might raise a general debate about how men with power are allowed to use women and so forth, and the guy would be in a rather hot spot in the public discourse for the accusation of rape only. But as I said, that sort of debate or general talk has not happened concerning Assange.

It might be that Assange himself is considered as some sort of politically correct hero himself, so this affair leave the usual PC guys in a limbo here. It is rather assumed or hinted at that it is some kind of setup is going on, but it is sort of un-PC to say either way. Therefore, as it seems to me, neither the assumed guilt-by-association nor the conspiracy is outspoken in media. While the media follows the development naturally – it is quite a story – no one takes sides right now. My impression is that in Sweden it is of outmost importance to be politically correct, therefore it is generally plagued by a cowardly discussion atmosphere, which is exactly what we are seeing right now.

So, to answer the OP, “nobody” wants Assange to be taken down, because it is good to support him, but nobody wants to take side with someone who has been accused of rape, so no one is neither taking his side either.

Yes, this sounds about right. Myself, I am neutral on the subject and his possible guilt. The timing is rather odd, no doubt.

[fuzzypickles]

IANASwede, but I’m Swedish by descent.

I hope they nail the bastard. He’s just a jerk, but a jerk of immeasurable magnitude. I don’t care if the charges are fabricated or not; with enough scrutiny, they’ll pin something more substantial on him.

And I don’t like it when Sweden looks bad, especially when compared to Norway.

[amanset]

@Juggler

The newspapers are having a field day with it, just because the world notices Sweden and newspapers love that.

.

Yep. I have to agree with that. The Swedish media has a bizarre (to me) preoccupation with what the rest of the world thinks of Sweden. Now they have all these foreign journalists commenting on something related to Sweden, so all he’ll breaks loose reporting on that.

[Claverhouse]

@DrDeth

She said the first complainant, Miss A, said she was victim of ‘unlawful coercion’ on the night of 14 August in Stockholm. The court heard Assange is accused of using his body weight to hold her down in a sexual manner.
The second charge alleged Assange ‘sexually molested’ Miss A by having sex with her without a condom when it was her “express wish” one should be used.

The third charge claimed Assange ‘deliberately molested’ Miss A on 18 August ‘in a way designed to violate her sexual integrity’.

The victim must have been in a real daze for the three days after the first assault.

[Capitaine_Zombie]

@DrDeth

Heres more info from the wiki discussion pages*:"3) that in that court, “Gemma Lindfield, for the Swedish authorities, told (City of Westminster magistrates court) Assange was wanted in connection with four allegations.
She said the first complainant, Miss A, said she was victim of ‘unlawful coercion’ on the night of 14 August in Stockholm. The court heard Assange is accused of using his body weight to hold her down in a sexual manner.
The second charge alleged Assange ‘sexually molested’ Miss A by having sex with her without a condom when it was her “express wish” one should be used.
The third charge claimed Assange ‘deliberately molested’ Miss A on 18 August ‘in a way designed to violate her sexual integrity’.
The fourth charge accused Assange of having sex with a second woman, Miss W, on 17 August without a condom while she was asleep at her Stockholm home.” [11] "*

Four broads in the same week??? Wow, that guy got some mojo.