Switch to base twelve?

For the non-mathematicians here, a base in math is the number equal to the number of symbols used (in the positional system of numbers we now use, anyway) which dictates how all other numbers are written. For example, we now use base ten because we have ten symbols (0123456789) to represent our numbers. Forty-three is 43 because it is four times ten plus three. However, in base twelve, what we call forty-three is written 37 because it is twelve times three plus seven.

Base twelve (duodecimal) has some significant advantages over base ten (decimal). Twelve divides evenly into halves, thirds, fourths and sixths. Thus, most fractions of numbers are simpler. Decimal 0,33333… becomes 0,4 in duodecimal, and .166666… becomes 0,2 in duodecimal. For these and other reasons, twelve is the number of months in a year, hours on the clock, and the number of eggs in a carton.

And since there are twelve symbols instead of ten, large numbers (like the US national debt, the number of atoms in a planet, or the number of times a man thinks about sex in a day) can be expressed in relatively few digits.

Duodecimal requires twelve digits, which means the creation of two more digits would be necessary. Some have suggested X for ten and E for eleven, some propose * for ten and # for eleven, but I personally like a reversed 2 for ten and a reversed 3 for eleven, because letters of the alphabet are reserved for algebra and * and # already have uses in math (namely multiplication and signaling a number). I cannot show you the numbers here, but they can be viewed here.

Of course, it would be very costly and difficult to re-educate everybody in duodecimal, not to mention it would be necessary to read the old (decimal) numbers or else replace all decimal numbers with duodecimal ones. But despite these costs, some think the resulting labor and costs saved using duodecimal would pay for itself.

Early on in the French Revolution, there was a debate on whether or not to switch to duodecimal. Eventually, they decided it would be too costly and based their metric system on ten. Afterward, some of the revolutionaries had written in letters that they regretted not switching to base twelve.

I feel that base twelve is far superior to base ten, but it seems that under the current circumstances, it would be extremely costly to change, so I must settle for using it for personal calculations.

What do you think?

Remember the Simpul Spelling Moovment?

Somewhat difficult to transfer over? A bit of an understatement there. You’d have to get every country on earth to agree to this for a start, then re-educate every person in the world, then convert over every piece of written material on the planet that contained a number, then replace every keyboard, dial, gauge, or other device with numbers on it. A project like this could take weeks to complete.

Doesn’t hexadecimal use A, B, C, D, E, and F for 11 - 16? I see no reason why duodecimal wouldn’t use A and B.

However since the metric system - by far the more superior way of measurement in my opinion - is already based on 10, and we have been operating under base 10 probably since before people realised there could be other bases (i.e., base 10 seems to be pretty intuitive for some reason), I don’t think there’s any overall value in switching to duodecimal. We would have to send everyone back through maths schooling just to get the whole country caught up on how to count out change, we’d have to invent new money I think?, rewrite every textbook that deals with numbers, etc. I don’t think whatever perceived value one could gain from the switch to duodecimal - to be honest I see no real improvement from 0.166666666666 repeating to 0.2, because 0.16666666666666 repeating is more accurately described as 1/6 anyway - would outweigh the cost in financial, educational, and social change.

I meant 10 - 15, of course. My bad.

Don’t think there’s much chance of everyone converting. Given how much there is recorded in base 10, the confusion would be enormous. The only place I’m seeing other base numerical systems being used is in the computer field, which are prone to being binary (and its powers) in nature due to the way they’re designed; so while you’ll see hexadecimal, you won’t see duodecimal due to that pesky triadic component.

Number systems are a bit of a hobby of mine (subset of notational systems in general which interest me), and I’m currently working on charting out a multiplication table for numbers in base 36 (binary*trinary[sup]2[/sup]) for some of the same reasons your link gives for base 12 (adding in a triadic component makes it divisible by more things). I’m using 0-9 and then Z for decimal 10 (reminds me of zero). The rest of the digits are A-Y. That way, the numerical order of the letters in the alphabet are their numerical value plus decimal 10: A=decimal 11, G=decimal 17, etc. That’s easier for me than the way hexadecimal does it. A, C, E are “odd” letters to me, while B, D, and F are “even”. It’s interesting to see how the patterns of the digits work out when they’ve got that much room to play. You start to realize that some of the funky things our base 10 system does aren’t remotely unique to it.

{One of the things that fascinates the paranormal crowd is the “spiritual significance” of numbers: for example, how 9 is the number of completeness because whenever you add the digits of one of its multiples together, they always eventually add to 9 again. Unfortunately, in any base system, multiples of the highest single digit will do that. That funky 5-0-5-0-5 pattern that the final digits of multiples of 5 have? In any base system, divide the base by two, and multiples of that digit will do the same thing.}

The coolest number system I ever saw was in a book that I picked up called The Magus by Francis Barrett (back in my grimoire collecting days). Later research revealed that he cropped it wholesale out of Agrippa’s Occult Philosophy trilogy, but I first found it in the Magus (someone had left a witnessing pamphlet in the book to save the soul of whoever bought that evil book :smiley: ). Each “digit” consisted of a vertical stroke, which by itself stood for zero and could act as a place holder. The numbers 1-9 were indicated by 9 different strokes attached to the top of the zero and extending to the right. 10-90 were the same strokes to the top left, 100-900 were bottom right, and 1000-9000 were bottom left (I may have those mixed up, but so long as you remember which you put where, it will work anyway). This made the system in effect a base 10,000 system where any 4 digit decimal number could be written with one character. With two more strokes for decimal 10 and 11, you’d have a 12-based number system with amazing density, but still retain easy readability. Base 20,736. WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

Um…actually, that should be (binary*trinary)[sup]2[/sup].

The letters of the alphabet are used in algebra and naming coordinates.

The metric system could be reworked to base-12. Actually, people realized other bases very early on in human history. Some tribes used base-5 (and some still do) and others base-10. They were bound to have run into each other’s system at some point. The ancient Babylonians used base-10 and base-60. Romans used base-10 for integers and base-12 for decimals. Even the ancient Chinese had invented binary (base-2).

New money isn’t much of a problem. In fact, the UK switched OUT of base-12 money not to long ago. The real cost is in re-education and in books, and virtually anything with a number on it of any importance, which makes switching to base-12 very impractical under the current conditions.

But note, under the current conditions. Revolutionary changes do happen in revoltutionary circumstances. The switch to metric appeared during the French Revolution. The Russian Revolution brought about a massive simplification of Russian spelling. IIRC, the Chinese Revolution was able to simplify a great many of the Chinese characters (imagine coming up with new designs for the majority of the letters of the alphabet).

Yes, that is true, but A-F are also used in hexadecimal. Have you ever coded in HTML and wondered what font color = “#CCCC00” meant? The colour codes are written in hexadecimal, and each group of two letters stands for the “amount” of red, green, or blue in that colour. Letters are not only used for algebra and co-ordinate systems. Dijon Warlock seems to agree.

The intuitive way, if widely-used systems such as the coding for colours in HTML use capital letters to indicate numbers greater than 9, is to follow suit.

I won’t start with the rest of your post but it seems odd to me that you would know all that stuff about math but reject the idea that these letters could signify numbers in higher-than-base-10 systems.

If I might try to put words in Palve’s mouth without prior consent, I think s/he sees a problem with letters-for-numbers in a general notational system. We can get by with it in hex because they’re understood to mean numbers in the limited context of programming. Using them for numbers in everything could get confusing where letters are already being used for something else. ax[sup]2[/sup]+by+c=0, for example. Are a, b, and c algebraic constants, or their numerical “values” of 10, 11, and…the speed of light in a vacuum? :slight_smile: I, too, see problems with letters in a general context, but not in a limited one where their meanings are understood, such as hex. For a real treat, Hebrew uses its entire alphabet as its numerical system. Every word is a number and lots (but probably not all) numbers are words. Imagine grocery shopping: is that the brand name, or the price?

I think it would depend largely on context. And the speed of light in a vaccuum is c, not C, if you get my drift :wink: (Not that it would matter if we went to duodecimal, of course.)

There are constants for which we have capital letters as symbols, of course. But I don’t think anyone would be so utterly unintelligent as to be incapable of reading in context. I mean really … If I went to the store to buy A-1 sauce I don’t think I’d be wandering around endlessly looking for “10” sauce.

Or 9 sauce for that matter. I really can’t get it through my head that A is 10 tonight!

Yeah, that’s just it; it would depend on context. Within an understood context, it would be possible to differentiate between the vowel A and the numerical A; but independent of context it wouldn’t be. Heh, 9 sauce. But if A was always 10, wouldn’t we think of it as 10-1 sauce, rather like 3in1 oil? File your taxes on the 1040-10 form? Your kid wanting an 11-11 gun for Christmas? I can see it now: W13-40 spray solvent. Like that WD-40 jingle wasn’t annoying enough.

“Dubya-thirteen, Dubya-thirteen, Dubya-thirteen-forty!!!”

I don’t know, I think it loses something…:slight_smile:

That’s why I made mine Z. Makes more sense that way.

To make it work you would have to invent new versions of all the digits, with the possible exception of ‘0’, otherwise how would you know if ‘1234’ in some document of indeterminate age was in duodecimal or archaic decimal?

Change how we count?

Well, it might not be a bad idea. I think the US should pioneer this.

We’ll start right after we finish our conversion to metric.

;]

Of course, some fractions that don’t have infinitely long numerical representations in base 10 will have infinitely long representations in base 12. That has to be taken into account.

One might note that the only numbers whose reciprocals have decimal represenations with finitely many non-zero digits are of the form 2[sup]i[/sup]5[sup]j[/sup]. I suspect (but haven’t proved) that a similar situation will occur in base 12, only the numbers will be of the form 2[sup]i[/sup]3[sup]j[/sup].

Judging by the amount of change I got from the guy at the gas station this morning, we still ahve quite a ways to go in base ten number education before we begin any conversion to a new system.

There is or was an organization called the British Duodecimal Society; I’ve seen pamphlets from the fifties from them. (I’ll see whether I can get a scan of them in a few weeks.)

GIYF:
A page called Twelve references the “The Dozenal Society of Great Britain” but that link does not seem to work.

HG Wells’ When the Sleeper Wakes had a future Great Britain using a base-12 counting system (and presumably a corresponding “base-twelve-metric” measuring system as well). It’s an interesting Road Not taken…

Oh! Palve, I see that your link goes to the Dozenal Society pages… :slight_smile:

Now, we take the base-12 “metric” system and monetary system described there, and add something like the proposed British Phonetic Alphabet and, as in the HG Wells story, I think we have the makings of a great Alternate Universe!

Imagine a universe where, in the late 1700s, Britain instead of France was a revolutionary power, dislocating existing power structures, imposing a metric system and monetary style across half of Europe, and forever putting its imprint on the nascent scientific/technological revolution.

Only instead of base ten, Revolutionary Britain does it in base twelve…

Damn, I’m gonna run with this! :slight_smile:

No, not really. A number written in duodecimal will use approximately log(10)/log(12)=0.9266… as many digits as it would in decimal. Not even an 8% savings.

On the other hand, a duodecimal multiplication table would contain (1211)/2=66 different entries (not counting 0x=0 for all x, and counting xy and yx as the same), whereas a decimal multiplication table only contains (10*9)/2=45; the duodecimal multiplication table is almost 47% bigger.

(Of course, that’s a minor objection compared to the hideous practical problems with converting to an entirely new number system.)

If I could pick a base for everyone to use, I’d probably pick octal (base 8). A nice, small multiplication table, numbers that are only log(10)/log(8)=1.107… times longer than their decimal equivalents, and it’s closely related to binary which every computer on earth is already using anyway.

Of course, I’d also like a free laptop computer, but I’m not getting one.