This may break the cosplaying discussion, but I want to readdress something that is probably causing some posters here to come close to picking “sides” in this thread. It is the repeated accusation of lack of imagination. It seems like a kneejerk reaction to me. I HAVE imagined what a black Gunsliger would be like in the later movies. It’s problematic. I HAVE imagined what a black Incredible Hulk is like, and that one is very problematic. I get the feeling that some posters here are so biting at the bit to prove they are so not racist that they don’t bother to examine themselves. So much so that I bet the kneejerk reaction, at least internally before they thought about, for many was “there is no reason for Bruce Banner not to to be black.” But there is, isn’t there?
For me personally, I think discussions like this are a good thing as long as it makes us, the participants, examine our own views. When we get into stuff like “lacking imagination” that doesn’t help.
Let’s be clear, though, that I’m excited by this, not worried about it. The implications of a change can make for a great story, even if they’re very subtle and even implicit. So I’d love to see a black Superman, and I’d love to see a Venezuelan Superman, and I’d love to see a Superman played by a little actor, and I’d love to see a Superman who was gay, and I’d love to see a Superman who was raised by a Hasidic family, because the implications of those changes could be super interesting.
I’m also fine with a black Superman existing in a world largely free of racism. I’d just categorize that as two changes, not one, and then move on.
Apropos of not much, maybe to get the thread to something a little more fun. Imagine a cinematic version of Frank Miller’s “The Dark Knight Returns”, with a black Batman. That would work perfect.
I don’t know; it seems a bit irresponsible to irradiate the population with gamma rays willy-nilly.
Wagner personally cast Schnorr as Tristan. Schnorr was enormous, and in fact died at age 29 after only four performances. But people in the audience instantly forgot about how fat he was or was not as soon as he opened his mouth and began to sing.
You know what’s problematic? Concentration camps filled with frightened babies.
I’m choosing to save words like “problematic” for real world issues involve real-ass people. A brown-skinned Incredible Hulk is a curiosity, at worst. The one thing it isn’t is “problematic”. Please use a better adjective.
I don’t know what the percentage breakdown is between serious and joke cosplay. You brought that up last time, too, and I fail to see how it is relevant. If 99% of the cosplay is joke cosplay and 1% serious, that still doesn’t make the joke cosplay as impressive as the serious cosplay. Neither is who the intended audience is in any way relevant to that fact.
I think you mean the Defenders there. Since her introduction (NOT in the pages of Thor, BTW), Valkyrie spent roughly the first two decades of her existence as a character as a Defender. Granted, she died in the final issue of the Defenders, but I guess she got better sometime later. I wasn’t reading much, if any, Marvel by that time. She was in Secret Avengers in recent years, but also in a few short-lived Defenders revivals.
However, Marvel’s Valkyrie has a backstory that is WAY more complicated than “She’s Asgardian.” She’s tall and blonde because she is the spirit of Brunnhilde the Valkyrie inhabiting the body of Barabra Norriss, a tall, blond American woman. Her winged horse Aragorn is not Asgardian; it was a gift from Black Knight. Her magic sword Dragonfang is not Asgardian; it was a gift from Dr. Strange.
Also, Marvel Universe Asgardians are NOT Norse or Scandanavians or Vikings or virtual representations of the Norse pantheon. They are immortal extra-dimensional beings with just as much as a “Chariots of the Gods” sci-fi background as a mythological one. The visual designs of Asgard and Asgardians that sprung from the imagination of Jack Kirby has little to nothing to do with traditional descriptions and depictions of Norse mythology.
Also, it’s like their haven’t been non-white Asgardians long before the MCU was a thing. The obviously Asian Hogun the Grim has been around almost as long as Thor has had a comic book. The MCU’s Valkyrie (who IIRC is never addressed as Brunnhilde) is far from the first non-white member of the Valkyrior, with Dani Moonstar being the most well-known example. It’s also been hinted that Valkyries are recruited from other places and not just Asgard.
That article is hot garbage. Twelve-year-olds can come up with better snark than that. “She’s giving us Poison Ivy from the ghetto.” WTF? What kind of idiot thinks it makes sense to compare people who are just trying to have some fun against cosplayers who are intentionally trying to dress to impress? I can talk some shit with the best of them, but that article is just flat-out mean.
Is any cosplayer who refuses to paint their skin a “joke” to you? Is it possible for a cosplayer to be considered “serious” based solely on the merits of their costume? Or is it all about getting the skin tone just right?
Because this woman seems pretty serious to me and she hasn’t done a damn thing to her skin tone.
I hate that fucking word. Its code for soft bigotry.
“I wont give that kid police legos cause he’s black and his parents may be offended. Its problematic” (Actually spoken by my ex-wife) So you’re LITERALLY treating that kid differently based on the color of his skin?
“Hulk can’t be black because it fits the narrative of a bunch of racists” OH…we’re letting racists direct the narrative now?
What the living Hell? Fucking , fuck man. concentration camps?!!!
What the fuck?!
O.K. I’l calm down. How is me pointing out that casting a black actor as a rage monster would be problematic equivalent to concentration camps? Have you lost your mind?
I think both Monstro and Dale Sams, prove my point here. The alt-right racist trolls are bad enough, but these kind of people are similarly annoying. Note that I said “similarly” - not “equally”.
Still, though… wow. “concentration camps”!!! If that’s not Godwin, it’s at least Godwin adjacent. Those two should be ashamed of themselves.
I fully believe that one of the reasons we still have racism in this country is that we don’t talk about it enough. And because we don’t talk about it, it becomes some side picking bullshit. Blindly picking sides and making assumptions without actually thinking about it. Us versus Them. That’s bullshit! That is how there is racism in the first place!
Can Dale Sims seriously not understand that maybe portraying a black man as someone with uncontrollable rage might be a bad idea? I think he can, but he just knee jerks. Blindly picking a side. Monstro’s “concentration camps filled with frightened babies” is even worse. Blindly picking a side and trying to back it up with a comparison that falls apart with even the least bit of logic.
Those two should be ashamed of themselves.
O.K., that said, there have been some very good posts in this thread, from very many points of view. It’s how we got to seven pages. I do not want the powers that be to have to lock this or move it to the Pit. So, everybody just chill (I’ll try to do it myself) and let’s talk about racism, or the lack thereof, in media. Without comparisons to concentration camps and fearful babies.
The Dork Signal is up! And I don’t mind at all if you recast me as a female; it leads to cool new stories.
Criminy. Please do.
I think I see you point about how stereotypes of black-men-as-thugs makes a black Hulk tie uncomfortably in to those stereotypes. But while monstro didn’t really address the point you’d made (much earlier in the thread, and just referenced in the post she responded to), I also don’t see you responding directly to what she’s saying about concentration camps.
Would you find a black Hulk problematic if there were other black and non-white characters in the movie? Or is your assessment based on the premise of David Banner being the only black character with the rest of the cast being white?
Eddie Murphy’s Nutty Professor could’ve been “problematic” for the same reasons you’re talking about. A brainy, meek, and socially awkward scientist transforms into a cool manly man who is also a loud and aggressive womanizer. Oh no! Won’t someone think of the racist stereotypes!
But…the movie was a huge success. So much so that a sequel was made. White and black crowds loved it. The “problems” that should’ve happened (they you are treating as inevitable for a black Hulk) didn’t happen. Why?
The protagonist wasn’t the only black character in the movie. The love interest was also black. There were also quite of few entertaining scenes with the Klumps family. They give the audience the context needed to see the professor as a fully formed person, not as just a race.
Also, Eddie Murphy has always had cross over appeal. People don’t see him as a “black actor”; they see him as an actor who happens to be black. So the movie doesn’t seem like an attempt at doing a black version of the Jerry Lewis movie. It seems more like an attempt at an *Eddie Murphy *version. I’d wager most young people have never seen the 1963 version, so the 1996 one is all they really know.
I can understand why it’s insulting to hear the “lack of imagination” argument, but seriously, it’s like watching someone shouting that it’s “problematic” to try to sail across the ocean, because it’s “obvious” the world is flat. What do you say to such an assertion, when there are examples of successful sea voyages? And the year is 2019, not the Middle Ages?
