[Moderating]
This thread inherently has a certain level of political content to it. It does not inherently relate to concentration camps. Folks have mostly been doing an adequate job of keeping it civil, but bringing in concentration camps will most definitely not help with that. Let’s all of us, monstro and everyone else, drop this hijack.
One mitigating factor with the Hulk is that, when he’s a brutish rage-monster, he isn’t black. Or white. Or any other color associated with any Earthly race.
One interesting artistic direction might be to have Bruce Banner be black, but to then base the Hulk’s features (other than skin color and overall size) on those of a white actor instead of on the actor playing Banner (or, if we’re going for old-school effects a la Lou Ferringo, have him played by a white guy in greenface instead of by a black guy in greenface).
And you need to go back to school to learn both reading comprehension and how to fucking write.
There is absolutely nothing problematic (or very problematic) about a black Incredible Hulk. Calling it “very problematic” is practically screaming, “I HAVE DEEP-SEATED ISSUES WRT RACE BUT I’M TOO STUPID TO REALIZE IT.” If you don’t want black posters such as myself to not roll their eyes at your, USE A DIFFERENT FUCKING WORD.
It’s a shame I’m having to spell this it out for you.
This may be a shock to you, but we have talked about this subject on the SDMB before. Notice how different that discussion is from this one. Notice how people expressed their issues with race-switching without saying shit like “very problematic”. And there was a clear absence of “hair color and skin color are equivalent” derpiness.
(I really do miss many of the posters in that thread. Where did they all go!?)
We’ve had a trillion threads about race on the SDMB and you can find me in almost all of them. So please spare me your lecture. You are not Cornel West, my dear.
Just in case it hasn’t dawned on you yet, I’m a black person. I grew up watching Incredible Hulk as a kid (even taught myself how to play the theme song on the piano). I LOVED ME SOME DAVID BANNER. I would not be offended at all by a black Incredible Hulk. But I am offended that someone thinks I would or should be offended by that. I’m frankly sick of white folks telling me what should and shouldn’t offend me, and then giving me a hard time when I refuse to feel the feelings they’ve projected. If there was a black Incredible Hulk and the material was good enough, you better damn-well believe that black people would be watching it. Black people will watch stuff even if it is problematic (to borrow your terminology) because check this! BLACK PEOPLE JUST WANT TO BE ENTERTAINED! JUST LIKE EVERYONE DOES! We don’t want to think about race all the time. Sometimes it’s nice sitting in front of a movie and being able to pretend we’re in a world where race doesn’t matter. A black Incredible Hulk would totally make us feel like we’re in that world.
LOL! You’re killing me with this.
Are you going to find some better ways to frame your argument? Because I won’t be shutting up about the stupidity of “very problematic” as long as you keep using it.
What I’m finding odd is that if there was a black Incredible Hulk and black people en mass were offended by it, I really doubt white folks would be oozing sympathy. White folks would be saying stuff like, “Hypersensitive much?” and “We were racists for not casting blacks and now we’re racist for casting blacks! WE CAN’T WIN!!!”
As you with the face said, there are ways to make a black Incredible Hulk “unproblematic”. However, I would argue that some “problematic” is perfectly acceptable from an artform. Like, imagine black David Banner deciding the only way to avoid getting angry in a racist Trumpian era dystopic society is to live off the grid in an all-black commune where racism supposedly doesn’t exist. But it turns out that looks are deceiving and OH NOES here comes the Hulk!
When characters are white, there’s a constraint on the kind of stories that can be told. A white David Banner being bothered by racism is certainly possible. But a black David Banner turning into the Hulk because of racism is something that just about every non-white person can relate to. And every minority (doesn’t have to be racial) can relate to the experience of wanting to seek out a “safe space” where the Hulk won’t come out. And of course, almost everyone can relate to the experience of thinking you’ve found “your people”, only to find out that those people aren’t who they initially seemed to be.
There’s no reason why a superhero (or supervillian) movie can’t make movie-goers think while its also entertaining them. I fail to see how a movie that makes you think can be called “problematic” (unless it is just straight-up racist). Sounds like a better descriptor for a “thinking man’s movie” would be “awesome.”
And why is it terribly unsurprising that a black woman is called ghetto? So looky here, a black person is attacked with racially loaded language when she dresses up as a white character…and what, we’re supposed to consider this a valid viewpoint held by “serious” cosplayers? Lol
The Asian guy is also ridiculed for daring to cosplay as Jack Sparrow. There is absolutely nothing wrong with his costume in any objective sense, but because he doesn’t look exactly like Jack Sparrow, he earns the prize of being called a “joke” on the internet by some asshole.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think that skin color is equivalent to hair color. It should be, in an ideal world, but that’s not the world we’re living in. I was meaning my comments on hair color to springboard into a discussion of why that’s so.
And monstro, you’re not breaking any rules yet, so this is not an official moderator directive, but I think it might be prudent to step away from this thread for a day or so.
You seem to think that just because someone chooses to make a costume they should be free from anyone commenting on the relative accuracy of the costume? What if the costume was just a piece of cardboard hung around someone’s neck with the words “Jack Sparrow” scrawled on it, is that an equally valid costume, too?
Also, since I, not the linked site, was the one making the distinction between the costumes people make seriously and the ones that they make as a joke, do you really think calling me an asshole in this thread is helping keep things civil?
Why? My postings are perhaps more pointed than they usually are, but I feel like you’re projecting feelings on me that I’m not experiencing.
So I shall not be stepping away from this thread. Hope that’s okay with you.
No one is under the delusion that no one is entitled to comment on people’s costumes. It’s a free country and all. The question of importance is so what? Who is the arbiter of good cosplay? The cosplayer who has fun channeling their favorite character? Or the close-minded person who thinks it’s about mimicking every detail, even ones that don’t matter?
Imagine if Obama had assigned value to the opinion that he couldn’t be President because he didn’t look anything like his predecessors. He probably would’ve taken himself out of the race if he assumed that looking presidential means looking white. Fortunately, he didn’t have that assumption.
Do you think this is anywhere comparable to an Asian guy dressing as Jack Sparrow?
How do we know that the Asian guy was dressing up like Jack Sparrow to be “accurate”? What if he was dressing up like Jack Sparrow to just have fun with other Jack Sparrow fans and impressing randos such as yourself was the farthest thing from his mind? Doesn’t cosplay intention matter at all to you?
If he had entered a costume contest with a cardboard sign with Jack Sparrow scrawled on it, then no, it would not be mean to judge him as a “joke” because that would be a clear joke costume. But if the Asian guy in that article had entered a costume contest, say, sponsored at his school, there’s no reason to think he couldn’t win first place. Because he didn’t just slap something together. He looked enough like Jack Sparrow to be instantly recognizable. Nothing in his costume screams “joke”. So how is it fair to call him a “joke”? And how is it non-assholish to compare his costume to someone who obviously has a lot of resources (and professional photography and favorable lighting) to work with?
sigh I didn’t call you an asshole, dude. I think it’s pretty damn clear I was talking about the writer of that article.
Honestly, I don’t even think that I read the comments on that site–if I did, I don’t remember them. I was just looking for a page compairing costumes that people put possibly hundreds of hours of work into getting every detail accurate and costumes slapped together in 5 minutes. You and monstro are choking over my description as “joke” costumes verses “serious” ones, but I’m pretty sure the people wearing the joke costumes are fully aware that they aren’t taking things as seriously as the hard-core cosplayers. (The race of Asian Jack Sparrow was one of the lesser ways the costume fell short of the other one.)
And people get to judge cosplay any way they please, and that includes accuracy and attention to detail, wherther you like it or not.
You don’t seem to understand that that us my actual damn point. That is what I mean by “joke” costumes—people just doing it for a joke instead of taking it seriously verses the hard-core cosplayers who’s lives and bank accounts basically revolve around getting everything right. And no, intention has absolutely, positivly no relevance whatsoever to the objective fact of judging the costume’s accuracy. Intention isn’t magic
Doing something for fun is not doing it as a “joke”. I participate on the SDMB for fun. But I still want people would show me respect and not laugh at me (unless I’m being really ridiculous). Posting here for fun rather than out of a desire for praise and money(!) doesn’t make a poster a “joke”. It makes them someone who is a normal, everyday internet user. The same framework applies to cosplay or any other hobby. The casual enthusiast has fun with what they do. They don’t do what they do to impress petty, superficial randos. They do what they do for themselves and themselves alone.
Judging amateurs against professionals is stupid and mean. It’s like judging Little Leaguers against players in the MLB. Why are you not understanding this?
monstro, my point was just that your tone seemed to be getting heated, and I was afraid that if that continues, you might end up saying something that I would have to officially put on my moderator hat for. If you can keep it under control, then there’s no problem. Like I said, it was not an official instruction.
You shouldn’t post an article without reading it. The article is shit, so your argument becomes shit just by referencing it. And it was totally unnecessary. Anyone with half a brain knows what professional cosplay looks like compared to amateur stuff. Only small minds think comparing the two makes any sense.
You didn’t really answer me about the black Wonder Woman I linked to upthread. Is she a “serious cosplayer” according to you? If yes, then what is the relevance of this “joke cosplay” tangent you’ve taken us on? If the difference between “serious” and “joke” cosplay is all in the amount of time and effort and money someone invests into their costume, then skin color has absolutely no place in the discussion, correct?
None of these cosplays are particularly “serious”, and yet I think they are pretty awesome. My fav is #14. Notice how they look nothing like the Clintons, but I’m guessing that’s kind of the freakin’ point.
I also like #32 White Walker Queen. She put a lot of care and thought and effort into the costume and she’s instantly recognizable as White Walker fam. But she fails to exactly simulate a White Walker or the Night King since she’s got curves and boobs. She’s still amazing though. How can that be, I wonder?
I think the best is #45. And funnily enough, without the sign around his neck most people wouldn’t be able to identify his cosplay. Yet it’s still an awesome costume. What do you think? Do you think his cosplay is a “joke”, or is it just cosplay?
iM
You continue to miscaricaturize my use of the word “joke” even though I have more than once explained it. Let me be even more explicit:
I am not and have not been calling the person wearing the costume “a joke.” You have been attempting to pin this on me, but you are wrong.
I have been calling the costumes “a joke” in the context of something done humerously without the expectation of being taken seriously. I seriously doubt that the people wearing the half-assed costumes were unaware that their costumes were anything other than half-assed, therefore they were doing it light-heartedly, playfully, or as a joke. When you claim that I am calling* the people* “a joke” you are pounding away on a straw man.
I haven’t looked too deeply into it, but she appears to be a model displaying costumes for sale on a commercial website.
Do you think the Asian guy or the black Poison Ivy had “half-assed” costumes? Do you think they’d appreciate you calling their costumes “half-assed”. Even if they were doing cosplay simply for fun, do you think they would appreciate some internet rando implying they are “half-ass” cosplayers?
Do you not understand why that article is hot garbage and thus totally obliterates the point you’re trying to make? You can try to convince me that all this time you’ve been equating “joke” with “for fun”, but you haven’t been doing this AFAICT. Because a person who understands the “for fun” part wouldn’t have linked to that article in the first place. That article totally misses the “for fun” part and likens anyone who doesn’t have hundreds of dollars and a professional make-up artist and favorable lighting with “bad cosplay”. So I haven’t been"mischaracterizing you". I’ve just been drawing reasonable inferences based on everything you’ve said and referenced.