Switching the Race of Characters

Which weakens your position, not strengthens it. To counter the idea that only someone with racial hangups cares about skin color when it comes to cosplay, you fatally jumped the shark by citing a source calling a cosplayer “ghetto” just for being black.

Is your point that if you’re black, some close-minded racist somewhere might scoff at you behind your back if you cosplay as a white character? If so, well done, you’ve made this point. Is your point that if you’re black, you should care that some close-minded racist somewhere will scoff if you cosplay as a white character? If so, you still haven’t convinced us of this. It rates a big fat so what.

Yet again, somehow, this turns into a debate about cosplay. I question particularly if Darren Garrison spends any time around this community personally, and how much time he spends at conventions and other places where cosplay is common. Mean-girl websites set up to get clicks by snarking at cosplayers they decide are sub-par are easy to find and not really meaningful views into the subculture. Well, there are jerks in it, so it does illustrate that.

There is a whole spectrum of detail, from ‘hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars’ to ‘I put a cardboard box around my chest and wrote the word ‘Gundam’ on it,’ and to pretend there are only the two extremes (and that cosplaying a character of another race is always closer to the cardboard-Gundam) is silly. Some people barely put time and money into it, just for the fun… some people put a ton of effort and money into it. Most people are in the center somewhere, and very few are trying to do more than entertain themselves and fellow fans… which does not mean they cosplay on the “joke” level, just not on the “spent thousands to get this costume made” level. I haven’t noticed any real difference between black and white cosplayers on this at all. Some cosplayers and cosplay groups are more casual, some are more intense; there are plenty of very serious cosplaying groups made up of black cosplayers, especially women.

And the focus on “realistically imitating the character” ignores that cosplay itself is transformative, and there are popular varieties such as ‘crossover’ cosplays featuring characters as seen through different genres. (For example, Disney Princess or Wakandan-warrior themed Sailor Moon cosplay, both of which I have seen done at obvious high effort.) There are a lot of things that make a good cosplay. “Looks exactly like the movie” is one aesthetic choice, but honestly, if I find myself impressed by a cosplay these days, it’s more often because there was some added creative element. That, or it was a very retro/obscure reference which I appreciated. This can still mean a very high-quality, high-effort cosplay.

All of this seems so off-topic I wonder why it is being allowed to overrun this thread.

As for movies… I cannot really imagine the mindset it would take for me to be upset Valkyrie isn’t played by a white actress because “her hair was blonde in the comic books.” I also have loved comic books all my life. Given the same character will look different depending on the artist of the *book *that day, I find it hard to cling too tightly to the idea that a character must look “like the comic book” (exactly how is that to be done outside of animation? And who decides which artist’s depiction is the ‘real’ one?) As long as they capture the “spirit” of the character, however that might be defined. I don’t think of Valkyrie’s “spirit” as being defined by her hair color.

Since there are other characters mentioned, okay, probably some literary and historical characters would seem more awkward than others. But superheroes, of all groups, should be easier to imagine ‘differently.’ They’re already highly abstracted and change frequently within the books, let alone the numerous changes the movies have made to plots and origins outside of looks. :dubious: All the rest of the changes to Asgard didn’t ping any warnings, just suddenly Heimdall and later Valkyrie ‘looking’ different?

Please stop mentioning being gay; I’m gay too. There are lots of racist gay people. It’s irrelevant to a discussion of race and portrayals of fictional characters (especially superheroes, of all groups) in film.

If we gotta do cosplay here, let’s be relevant.

This guy is legit, and there’s nothing that makes him unbelievable as Superman.

And your “camp,” if you prefer that term, has put forward no argument that is anything more than “race as defined by skin color is such a fundamental element of the human character, even if entirely fictional characters, that I can’t see around it.”

I’d ask for an explanation of what you think you mean by this.

What I would ask you to do is ask yourself why you would be satisfied with anything less.

I would encourage you to think twice before professing to speak for any significant group of fans.

I’m 50 years old. I started as a fan of the superhero genre probably when I was less than 4 years old, with the Super Friends, the Adam West-Burt Ward Batman TV series, and Spider-Man segments on the Electric Company. In the early 1970s.

I started reading comic books within a couple of years after that, somewhere between 5-7 years of age. For many years of my childhood I spent my entire allowance every month on superhero comic books.

So I’m not impressed by your attempt to pull rank on me as a spokesman for “fans of the source material.”

Yes, it’s a pattern for people to feel insulted when it’s pointed out that they make baseless assumptions based on race.

I do enjoy world building in a lot of the stories I read/watch/whatever. That being said, if I want a story with quality world building and poignant societal interaction I’m damn sure not going to reach for a comic book.

Comics are a world of unbridled imagination and fantasy where I can travel the galaxy as easily as my neighborhood and death is nothing more than a serious medical condition. I can understand wanting to explore a story with black Superman in a racist world but when you start treating people with different skin colors as “other” all for the sake of normalcy then I can’t help but wonder about the quality of ones imagination.

As far as what I want in a story with black Superman allow me to quote a cool guy who seems to grasp the basic concept

Simple as that

That thread pissed me off to the point I decided to stop lurking and start participating in the conversation.

Everybody loves to casually throw around the MLK quote about not judging folks by the color of their skin but by the content of their character…and then you get to cosplay and all you hear is a bunch of bullshit about accuracy. I can’t help but wonder what these people see when they look at me.

I would ask you to acknowledge that the only reason the story gets “weird” is because of your personal hang ups. If you think treating non-white characters as “other” is normal then maybe you should examine what normal really means to you.

Since this isn’t an official moderator action I will feel free to comment.

In light of the direction this conversation is going and the position you have taken, this looks bad. Like “ok angry little black person you’re getting too emotional so allow me to be paternalistic and gently inform you it’s time to go to your room so you can stop upsetting the good white folks” bad.

I’m not speaking for monstro (she’s handling shit pretty well on her own) and I’m not saying this was your intention only that the optics are really really bad in light of the subject matter.

Different experiences. I’ve read very few comics in my day, but the ones I’ve read have been like the Sandman series and Watchmen. I’m absolutely going for worldbuilding and societal interaction.

It’s fine that others aren’t, but all things being equal I’d rather see social shit explored than ignored.

Fair point. Watchmen was all about world building and societal interaction so point conceded on that one.

Lets get back on subject cause I’ve got a doozy and I’m MOSTLY right.

Speaking of Sandman…you CANNOT change his gender. Which is weird cause he appears as cats and other aliens sometimes. But FOR THE MOST PART (how would he appear to a gender-less species??) you cannot…because:

Its part of the overall theme of the entire series. Morpheus absolutely is a ‘male force’. Its a fundamental flaw of his character for centuries. He got his heart broken, and became verrrrry misogynistic. He’s childish, he’s petty. Its a fundamental theme of the entire series. That men are petty children and you either change or you die.

Morpheus changed as much as he could but it just wasn’t enough.

Come at me. I’m right. You can’t make Morpheus female and maintain the overall indictment of men.

Yep. Not a comic book, but these discussions always remind me of the George Macdonald Fraser short story “Johnnie Cope in the Morning”, one of his “Private McAuslan” stories about a Highland Scots regiment after the end of WWII. In this story, a new member of the platoon wants to join the regimental pipe band. He’s an excellent bagpiper and thoroughly qualified but the senior officers are tying themselves in knots about it because…he happens to be black. (Scots father, W. Indian mother IIRC.) The band just won’t look right, the officers fret.

And mind you, this is in a regiment that has tall men and short men, thin men and fat men, bespectacled men and bald men, hirsute men and smooth-skinned men, brown-eyed men and blue-eyed men, pale men and swarthy men, black-haired, red-haired and yellow-haired men, all of which are simply taken for granted as part of “normal” variation in appearance. But let a new guy show up with skin dark enough to qualify him for a different racial category, and somehow that’s a far more “obvious” kind of difference. (He was eventually allowed to join the band, btw.)

To white people in a traditionally racist society, skin color really does stand out so much more than other characteristics. It’s the un-ignorable difference, even for many people who aren’t consciously racist. A black person in any sort of role that traditionally “belongs” to a white person generates disproportionate levels of discomfort, even if skin color is fundamentally irrelevant to that role.

That’s a weird as shit interpretation of that series. I would definitely recommend you not play Morpheus as female, but anyone who doesn’t subscribe to that strange interpretation could 100% do so.

I warned you not to come at me!!! …wait…I encouraged it…Ok now im gonna reread the series and provide a ton of cites.

I think this pic perfectly illustrates that you can only go so far off-model before the character becomes essentially unrecognizable.

Goddammit, Superman wears his underwear on the outside.

This cosplay is a travesty.

I understand your concern, and I can see how my statement could be interpreted that way. But it’s not about categories of people; it’s about individuals. Sometimes, in a discussion like this, an individual gets overly-irritated, loses their temper, and ends up saying things they regret. I’m a moderator; it’s my job to prevent that from happening, if I can. For a while there, it looked like monstro, specifically, might be getting close to that line. Meanwhile, even though you’ve been arguing a harder position than her, you haven’t been getting close to that line, so I haven’t needed to say anything to you.

And if you were to make a movie (or TV episode, or whatever) of this story, would it make sense to cast a white actor as the new piper? Would it make sense to cast black actors as any of the existing band members?

Race is important because historically, people have viewed it as important, and that’s shaped our society. And so if you want to depict that society, you have to at least sometimes keep the skin colors accurate.

The key is to understand when it’s important and when it’s not. I’m sure that well meaning people feel differently about whether it’s important for any particular story or character.

As long as we’re giving each other feedback…

If you were worried I was about to cross a line, you could have just told me (and everyone else…including the dude clutching his pearls about how “shameful” Dale Sams and I am) to just take things down a notch. You advising me (and only me) to take a break from the thread for a couple of days was completely overkill and yes, did come across as extremely patronizing. FYI, I was actually in a fine mood until you posted that “helpful suggestion”.

You could have also PM’ed me if you were THAT concerned.

In retrospect, yes, a PM would have been better. Please accept my apology.