Swords and Trumpets and Sand...oh my!

Great Debates
1

Ok, I started a similar thread on LBMB once, about why so many people pray using “King James English”, so I thought I’d post this one here.

Do Christians in general, and Biblical Literalists in particular, really believe that God and His Angelic Host actually wear robes and wield swords? Do you believe that the “Last Trump” will be an actual, honest-to-goodness trumpet? I’m sure you can think of other things mentioned in the Bible that no longer apply to our day and age.

Someone asked (several someones, in fact) where do I draw the line on believing the literal truth of the Bible. Fair enough…this is one of my lines.

I find it hard to believe that God and Company are stuck, technologically, in the 1st century AD.

I mean, you can build your house upon the sand, or you can build your house upon the rock–but these days, most people build their houses on concrete and rebar.

-David
Did this post make any sense at all?

2

hhmmm… good thought provoking OP Hutch(i.e. David Soul(Frost))

King James Engish: nope I pray like I’m talking to you… but with a touch more respect… and a lot of 'O, Lord’s :slight_smile:

The pictures of angels down through the ages don’t match up with what scriptures say angels are. see cheribium in Genesis versus the little cutesy cupid thingys on the hallmark cards.

Trumpet… probably a shofar, but I think Gabriel can choose whatever instrument he wants.

So in answer to your first question, it seems that you may have a little stereotype of a ‘biblical literalist’ that is off from the truth. (or at least as it refers to me ;))

God stuck techonologically in the 1st century… hmmm… I don’t think God ever used man-made technology. And I wouldn’t presume to limit him to that.

Peace.

† Jon †
Phillipians 4:13

3

SoulFrost said

That be rock, David :slight_smile:

Will the “Last Trump” will be an actual, honest-to-goodness trumpet?.. hmmm… Is a trumpet being stcuk in the 1st century AD? Some of the great Jazz artists might dissagree. But seriously. If the Bible says it will be with the sound of a trumpet, I’d be willing to bet that it’ll be some kind of loud unmistakeable sound.

And, no I don’t pray in “King James English” either, but rather in normal conversation as I would with any friend, complete with that “suthin drawl” someone question in another thread.

But then again, if King James English was good enough for the apostle Paul, then why shouldn’t it be good enough for the rest of us? :wink:

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

4

Since this question is addressed to “Biblical Literalists in general”, let me offer the Orthodox Jewish answer:

G-d does no such thing, as he is not a physical being. There are no words in human language to accurately describe G-dly concepts. Thus, when a certain aspect of G-d’s behavior requires description, it is translated into the most accurate possible human equivalent. But this has nothing to do with technology; it has to do with physical vs. non-physical.

Angels are only sent to the physical world to perform specific missions. All angel stories in the Bible come from the days before the invention of, say, uzis, thus, if they were sent for a mission of war, they would have actually appeared carrying swords. In theory, an angel sent on a mission in modern times might well be sent with an uzi.

Chaim Mattis Keller
cmkeller@compuserve.com

“Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks.”
– Douglas Adams’s Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective

5

First and foremost, I agree with all of you.

God simply cannot be bound by the inventions, ideas, or thoughts of Man.

And no, Nav, I’m not thinking in a stereotype.

The only reason that I brought up the topic is that I was recently confronted by a group of people who claimed two things–that every word of the Bible is literal truth, and that the various swords, shields, armor, musical instruments, etc are likewise literal (just “invisible”.) One claimed to have actually seen the sword that an Angel was carrying.

“Shield” does not mean “Protection/Strength/Guidance” to these people–a “Shield” means a genuine “Shield”!

So, I just thought that I’d bring it up for discussion.

BTW…the flaming sword that the Cherubim had at the gate to Eden…why a sword? Had swords even been invented (by man) at that point in time?

-David

6

Actually, the main ingredient in concrete is sand, and rebar is usually iron or aluminum.
(sorry, just had to throw that out.)

7

cmkeller:

Your analysis was insightful, thanks.

Is it possible for a man to adhere to the teachings in the Sermon on the Mount, while not accepting Jesus as the Messaiah, and remain in good standing with Judaism?

“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler

8

Libertarian:

When I lived in New York in the early '90s, there was a burgening collection of people who called themselves “Jews For Jesus.” I think the Village Voice did a story on them at one point.

Needless to say, most true Jews found this ridiculous, though I do not know what that particular sect used as a reason for believing the way they did without simply calling themselves Christians and being done with it.

Maybe they just didn’t want to be considered goyim at family gatherings? :slight_smile:

Yer pal,
Satan

9

SoulFrost:

Questionable. Certainly iron had not yet been smithed; that, according to the Bible, was the invention/discovery of Tuval-Cain. However, Adam definitely was familiar with the concept of animal sacrifice (or at least Cain and Abel were, and where else would they have gotten it from), so blades of some sort (stone?) were probably extant. Presumably the angels’ flaming swords were clearly recognizable to Adam and Eve as bladed instruments, even if Adam and Eve were unfamiliar with the actual form of the sword.

Libertarian:

Well, I’m not familiar with the actual contents of the Sermon on the Mount. However, assuming that the sermon conforms to what the Torah already says, it would certainly be in poor form for a Jew to be obeying the Sermon because of what was said in it, rather than because of what was said in its source, i.e., the Torah.

Of course, if the sermon contains anything which contradicts what is in the Torah, then Judaism would be unhappy with following the sermon rather than the Torah.

Satan:

The Jews for J group was not founded by Jews, but rather, by Christians, as a tactic to convert Jews who don’t know much about their own religion. It is run by a Christian organization called the “Board of Missions to the Jews.”

Chaim Mattis Keller

10

Sixseatport said

Ahh, yes, sand is an important part of concrete, but what makes concrete concrete instead of just cement is the inclusion of stones… crushed rock. I’ve never used aluminum rebar and haven’t seen it used, but iron rebar… well, iron comes from iron ore… a rock :slight_smile:

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

11

Satan:

Yeah, I’m familiar with the Jews for Jesus. But, if you think they’re something, check this out.

Atheists for Jesus

cmkeller:

Would you be offended if I posted a portion of the sermon here for the benefit of your direct opinion?

“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler

12

I still say the Our Father in the King James English, but that is a formal prayer. When just praying to God from my heart rather than rote, it’s a conversation as if I were speaking to you.

As for the trumpet and angels, I’ve always believed that the trumpet was used to illustrate the intention of God to get our attention by a very loud noise and that angels came to humans in an appearance that they could comprehend and hopefully wouldn’t scare them off too badly.
Again, back to lurking.

13

Libertarian:

No. Post away.

Chaim Mattis Keller

14

MKM,

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, etc…

It’s just a matter of how you look at it.

:slight_smile:

15

cmkeller:

Okay, here it is. I would appreciate your opinions on several levels (1) a general criticism based on your own personal opinions, (2) a canon of any and all contradictions to the Torah that you find, and (3) your comments on what you believe to be the underlying theme of the message. Thanks.

Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, and he began to teach them, saying: "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

…

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

…

"Be careful not to do your `acts of righteousness’ before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

"This, then, is how you should pray: `Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

…

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

…

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

"So do not worry, saying, What shall we eat?' or What shall we drink?’ or `What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

“So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”

“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler

16

Libertarian:

I’ll give this a thorough look-over and get back to you tomorrow or after the weekend. There’s too much stuff here for me to give a hasty answer.

Chaim Mattis Keller

17

cmkeller wrote:

The Greeks were using bronze swords in the time of the Trojan War. However, the bronze age didn’t begin until around 3000-2500 BCE, and before that time the best metal we knew how to work with was plain (unalloyed) copper. I doubt you could make a useful sword out of copper.
MKM wrote:

Um … SAND is crushed rock, too. I guess the scriptures weren’t taking about what KIND of material to build your house on top of, so much as whather that material was ground up or not.

Oh, and SoulFrost: I, too, have come across a biblical literalist who believed that angels carried real swords and shields instead of metaphorical ones. I encountered him several years ago on the newsgroup alt.christnet.bible-thumpers.convert.convert.convert (yes, there really is a Usenet newsgroup by this name).

18

Libertarian:

Atheists for Jesus was a fascinating site; thank you for posting the link.

While what I read on the site was pretty consistent with my belief system, I don’t think I’ll be affording the membership fee any time soon. I didn’t attempt to join any of the discussions, so I never got a sense of whether membership is required to post a response. Still and all, if posting to it is free, I’d be interested in seeing what contributions the members of this board could make.

[NIXON]Let me make one thing perfectly clear:[/NIXON] I am in no way suggesting that any members of this board approach the AFJ site in the pseudo-sub rosa style that was taken with the LBMB. While I am mindful of the great benefits we have accrued from that incident (that is, the gain of such fine people as Navigator, Lauralee, MKM, Rabbi Sam, and many others), the trauma, hurt feelings, and just plain ugliness that accompanied the denouemnt point up in stark relief the importance of being forthright and above-board in our “foreign policy,” if you will.

19

My opinion on the Angelic sword, sheield, and trumpet idea is…

They don’t need technology. Their inate power allows them to accomplish more that our latest/greatest technology.
Furthermore, the swords and such are not sepearate items than themselves. They don’t run over to Heavenmart and pick up a new one when they loose the old one…
They are just manifestations of thier own power.
They may well still show up to as us as swords and shields, we all know what those items are and what they do. They may show up as our technology, if they are on ‘covert’ operations.

20

Interestion story a friend of mine tells.
They were on the way to Isreal on a tour.
They were late getting into JFK and the international terminal was on the other side of the airport from the domestic flights.
They had two huge steamer trunks that they were traveling with, each about 100lbs.
They had about 5 minutes to get them selves and 200lbs of luggage about a half mile away.
The luggage claim for the domestic flights was packed full. She prayed for assistance.
Suddenly a (to her description)6’8" blonde man appeared. He was dressed in a t-shirt and blue jeans with sneakers. He pointed to the two steamer trunks rotating on the claim belt and stated that they were thiers. They confirmed that. He grabbed both trunks tossed each on a sholder an headed off into the crowd. People seem to move out of his way. They arrived at the appropeate gate(they never told him which one)he sat the trunks down, informed them his name was Gabriel and disappeared from in front of them.

The point here being that if in fact he was an angel (which I believe he was) he appeared as a normal man, in our present clothing, speaking American English.