kswiss, it feels like you are on a mission and I admire your tenacity.
I am not a car guy by profession , although I do my own oil changes and small repair work. I will give you my perspective from the oil refiners perspective.
Say you are in the chicken Frying business and you come to me (I am in the oil business) and you want a specific oil with certain taste, smoke point, durability etc etc. I mix together some palm oil from Malaysia, some avocado oil from Mexico and some corn oil locally and you like the blend. You are able to absorb some variations season to season because crops can change. This is conventional oil.
But now you come back and tell me that you can’t accept seasonal variations but want the same blend tasting the same and having same properties every time. Now I am forced to setup a big greenhouse and grow my own avocados and palm trees so that I can control the final oil quality better.
That’s what synthetic oil is equivalent to. Modern cars, due to their high efficiency and low emissions (even during startup) require oils that are hard to find naturally (conventional). Even if you find them in some oils, they are not reliable quality wise or availability wise. It’s just easier to grow your own or in this case synthesize.
As you have probably noticed, the price of synthetic oil is coming down and it will continue the trend.
I understand why synthetic oil cost more. I also understand that synthetic oil has certain qualities that are objectively “better” than conventional oil.
What I do not understand, is why my Dodge Charger manual doesn’t say anything about requiring Synthetic oil or the Warranty ramifications of using conventional oil.
it won’t “void your warranty.” all they (the car manufacturer) are saying is “this is the oil we developed and tested the engine on, and it is the only one we will assure you will work.”
your car’s warranty doesn’t become null and void just because you used a different brand of oil. What might happen is if your engine experiences a failure and they can reasonably demonstrate it was because of the oil (and you used something other than factory recommendation) they might have standing to deny a warranty claim on that basis. But the chances of that happening are very, very slim. And still doesn’t “void” the warranty on the rest of the car.
and like Joey P showed above, FCA’s Material Standard for the oil your car requires does not mandate full synthetic. Valvoline conventional motor oil claims to meet MS-6395.
I don’t recall you suggesting that, either. But you could do it, so I’ll suggest it. I used to work at an oil change place decades ago, and it was a pretty common practice. The customer preferred a specific oil that we didn’t carry, and they’d bring a sufficient amount with them. I don’t recall if there was a higher charge for that service.
Anyway, I doubt that was some “special” oil change place. I bet you can find one that does the same with a couple of calls. Oh, and go ahead and bring a filter, too.
Synthetic oil appears to be compliant. That’s why it’s being recommended by the dealer. Other oils are also compliant. Dealers may or may not carry other compliant oils. So the one you’re talking to, likely most others, will recommend what they stock and is compliant.
Honestly… I told you what your other options are. Are you seriously going to pick a fight with everyone who doesn’t tell you exactly what you want to hear?
The manual tells you your oil must meet specific requirements. You could use Crisco cooking oil IF it met those requirements. Most, if not all of synthetic oils will meet the requirements. SOME conventional oil/blends will meet your requirements. Easier to use synthetic and know it meets the requirements than guess if a conventional oil that may or may not. Use the “wrong “ conventional oil/blend under warranty and you have engine issues they may and probably will not cover it.
Yeah, no. You seem to want to get into some kind of crazypants argument that “recommends” does not legally mean “require”. Not playing that game. Find a lawyer if you want to do that.
You quoted the manual. All the OEMs use similar language. If you do not use the oils that they “recommend”, then they do not guarantee your car’s performance. Hence, you have voided their warranty. Go read the post from @am77494 which includes:
Page 13, Section 3.3 (Bolding mine)
“Your warranties don’t cover the costs of repairing damage caused by poor or improper maintenance. Nor do they cover damage caused by the use of contaminated fuels, or by the use of fuels, oils, lubricants, cleaners or fluids other than those recommended in your Owner’s Manual.”
You do not seem to realize that you are not asking the question that you think you are asking.
You believe that you are asking: “I have a 2019 Dodge Charger. Is there a non-synthetic oil that I can use (which maintains the car’s warranty)”.
But you’re asking it of people who do oil changes. What they’re hearing you ask is: “I want you to change the oil in my 2019 Dodge Charger. Can you use a non-synthetic oil (because I suspect your synthetic oil is a scam).”
These people are not experts on your car. They have a database that lists all the oil grades which are OEM recommended for each car, and that database cross-references with the oils they have available. They look, and see that OEM recommendation + available oil grade = NULL, and so they tell you “The manufacturer requires the synthetic grade (if you want to follow their recommendation and keep your warranty valid).”
They are always going to answer you about the oil grades they have available, because they don’t know what other oil grades are valid and they don’t want the liability for telling you information that hasn’t been vetted.
Your best shot at getting your actual question answered is to ask someone technical at the car manufacturer; not the dealer, and not an oil lube shop. You want to ask them “What non-synthetic oil grades meet your recommendations for use with a 2019 Dodge Charger?”
Maybe you’ll get the reply you want. I’d actually be surprised if anyone is qualifying non-synthetic blends for recommended grades for 2019 model cars. We’re changing from GF-5 to GF-6 right now, and treat rate requirements for GF-5 were already so tight that probably not many non-synthetic blends were tested. Oil companies have shifted their non-synthetic basestocks to older grades, and to Latin America, Middle East, and Asia-Pacific markets where those grades are still sold in high volumes. If you want to be able to use a non-synthetic oil, you should get an older model car.
I think I’ve gotten enough answers and they boil down to 2 categories.
A. Conventional Oil is fine for warranty purposes
B. Synthetic Oil is what they are recommending, so use that. Even if they don’t specifically say so. Don’t be a cheap ass.
I am not an especially thrifty person, but as an average American consumer I have certain expectation about how much things cost. Oil changes are in the 20-40 dollar range for a normal vehicle. Many, if not all, oil changes places (not just jiffy lube) advertise this as the base price. Synthetic is a pricier alternative which depending on your opinion is or is not worth the extra cost.
This is a Dodge. Not a Ferrari or Rolls Royce or any other high performance vehicle.
It’s like buying a Kia sub-compact only to learn it requires 92 Octane gas, so I’m paying 20 cents more a gallon for the next ten years. (yes I know Kia doesn’t do this)
As said and cited before: Page 13, Section 3.3 (Bolding mine) “Your warranties don’t cover the costs of repairing damage caused by poor or improper maintenance. Nor do they cover damage caused by the use of contaminated fuels, or by the use of fuels, oils, lubricants, cleaners or fluids other than those recommended in your Owner’s Manual.”
Among the approved MS-6395 oils, most are fully synthetic, some are blend and some are conventional. If you use the oils specified in the MS-6395, your warranty will not be void due to the use of incorrect oil.
Now, it does appear these include a special formulation or two of non-synthetic oil, and several mixtures. But it you dont at least use a synthetic blend, and your regular oil isnt on that list, that could void your warranty for that sort of damage.
there is no such thing as unilaterally “voiding the warranty.” stop this nonsense. They can deny a specific claim if and only if they can demonstrate that the use of a non-factory part or accessory CAUSED THE FAILURE.
Pretty much any oil of the appropriate weight and recent grade is going to be fine, performance-wise. Your engine won’t suddenly seize up or something like that.
There are a myriad of ways the OEM can get out of your warranty – recommended oil change interval, for example, is rarely followed. (I don’t. And I make the stuff.) You’re unlikely to end up in a situation where you’d want to make a warranty claim before the warranty expired, anyway, so worrying over it too much isn’t going to help anything.
The “synthetic or not” question comes up here a lot. Responses are usually split, yay or nay. But the industry is moving toward synthetic for more recent oil grades & car models, and so that’s what the car manufacturers will be recommending, so be aware when you make your choice.
Yeah, no, I don’t need to find a lawyer, because the lawyers and regulators have already spoken. The relevant law is the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act and its related regulations and jurisprudence. See, for example, 16 CFR 700.10(c):
(c ) No warrantor may condition the continued validity of a warranty on the use of only authorized repair service and/or authorized replacement parts for non-warranty service and maintenance (other than an article of service provided without charge under the warranty or unless the warrantor has obtained a waiver pursuant to section 102(c) of the Act, 15 U.S.C. 2302(c). For example, provisions such as, “This warranty is void if service is performed by anyone other than an authorized ‘ABC’ dealer and all replacement parts must be genuine ‘ABC’ parts,” and the like, are prohibited where the service or parts are not covered by the warranty. These provisions violate the Act in two ways. First, they violate the section 102(c), 15 U.S.C. 2302(c), ban against tying arrangements. Second, such provisions are deceptive under section 110 of the Act, 15 U.S.C. 2310, because a warrantor cannot, as a matter of law, avoid liability under a written warranty where a defect is unrelated to the use by a consumer of “unauthorized” articles or service. In addition, warranty language that implies to a consumer acting reasonably in the circumstances that warranty coverage requires the consumer’s purchase of an article or service identified by brand, trade or corporate name is similarly deceptive. For example, a provision in the warranty such as, “use only an authorized ‘ABC’ dealer” or “use only ‘ABC’ replacement parts,” is prohibited where the service or parts are not provided free of charge pursuant to the warranty. This does not preclude a warrantor from expressly excluding liability for defects or damage caused by “unauthorized” articles or service; nor does it preclude the warrantor from denying liability where the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was so caused.
In this case, Dodge/FCA has not obtained a waiver from the feds, they are not providing the oil free of charge, and certainly the warrantor has not been able to demonstrate that a so-far non-existent defect/damage in OP’s vehicle was caused by use of improper oil. Therefore, as a matter of well-settled law, OP’s warranty has NOT been voided and cannot unilaterally be voided, so you are simply wrong.
You are also wrong about what exactly Dodge is recommending. They don’t recommend “synthetic oil”; they recommend “engine oils that are API Certified and meet the requirements of FCA Material Standard MS-6395.” Mobil-1’s flagship full synthetic has not been certified to meet MS-6395; Pennzoil’s bog-standard dino oil has.
You don’t know which conventional oil OP chose; it may very well have been one that FULLY COMPLIES with the manufacturer’s recommendations, and yet you are willing to assert that even a fully-compliant conventional oil “will void” the warranty merely because it’s conventional oil. That is quite wrong and wrong-headed.
Having read your further explanations, I still don’t see any grounds whatsoever to support your claim that OP has voided his warranty.
Not an expert in the field, but distilling (ha!) the replies from those who are, it appears to me that if you made a warranty claim, Dodge would not be able to deny it on the basis you had not followed the dealership recommendation of using fully synthetic oil provided you could demonstrate that the non-fully synthetic oil you did use was compliant with the specification in the manual. Sorry, that’s a lot of negatives but I think they are all in the right places to give you the answer you were looking for.
Didn’t realize Synthetic oil was such a contentious issue. Maybe I should have put this in Great Debates.
Alls I’m saying, If Dodge “requires” synthetic oil, they should explicitly state that. Not some vague API standard. I, and the average consumer, are not petroleum chemist.
I also have another higher end vehicle (BMW). It clearly states on the gas cap area “91 Octane”. Most cars don’t require that, but some do. And the salesman who sold it to me mentioned that I would need to buy premium gas for it. So fine, I as a informed consumer made the decision to buy a car that requires premium gas.
The oil cap on the Dodge says SAE 5W-20. It is the base model with the standard engine, not the super duper Hemi V8, which I might expect would need more expensive maintenance. I don’t its unreasonable for me to think that I can put 5W-20 conventional oil in it.
