http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mkidglove.html
What’s also interesting is that boxing gloves hurt more than bare hands. Gloves protect the hands of the wearer, not the body of the opponent.
But how explain how “to take off the gloves” meaning to treat roughly arose from boxing when “kid gloves” was around during an era when boxers (like Kid Chocolate) used bare knuckles? I’m with American Heritage on this one.
…me too. I’m not sure if that was clear in the OP.
I don’t know about which is more painful, but boxing gloves definitely do less damage to an opponent than bare hands. They do, in fact, soften the blows.
And Tom Arctus, your objection is only valid if the expression “take off the gloves” has its origin at the same time as “treat with kid gloves”, which is nor stated nor implied in the report. Picture this sequence of events:
Gentle (and genteel) folks start wearing kidskin gloves
Expression “treat with kid gloves” is coined
Folks stop wearing literal kid gloves
Boxers start wearing boxing gloves
Expression “take off the gloves” is coined, by either mechanism proposed in the report.
You thought it was interesting that the same expression could have positive and negative meanings? Check out the expressions for cleansing ones body! That has THREE meanings, positive, negative and neutral!
If you cleanse yourself in a bath, you are losing money.
If you cleanse yourself by washing, you are breaking even.
If you cleanse yourself by cleaning up, you are making money.
“I took a bath on that deal” = I lost money, the other person made money.
“The deal was a wash” = I broke even, the other person broke even.
“I cleaned up on that deal” = I made money, the other person lost money.
Is that wacky or what!
I remember an expression from my childhood - “with white kid gloves” to indicate that something was being handled delicately. I suppose kid leather that had been bleached or otherwise whitened (I don’t know the process) was even more fine, refined, delicate and expensive. My grandmum and such folks used the expression, and it seems to come up when some one of wealth or position was being given better or deferential treatment, especially when the person had committed some offense, and the authorities were pussy-footing around.
(Yep, that’s right - pussy-footing while wearing white kid gloves. Should be some kind of term to describe that.)
-calian
Dex I’m going to respectfully disagree with you on two points in your original article. I could be wrong. But when you said
I looked but couldn’t find the quote/usage from the 1830’s. By the 1850’s, yes.
Second, you said
My reading of the book is that they suggest the opposite. I think they, in there poorly written entry suggest that “handle with kid gloves” arose from the antonym “handle without gloves.”
The OED/and Mathews cite handle without gloves, meaning “to treat harshly,” as the original phrase in 1827 in a US cite. They then cite 1828, again US, as …handles Mr. Clay with gloves off.
I don’t know what to make of the second cite about Mr. Clay. I doubt that the phrase “handles Mr. Clay with gloves off” was taken from boxing in that early date(1828). I’ll work on the boxing aspect next.
A slightly more modern (i guess, don’t know the history) source for “take of the gloves” (at least in my experience) is hockey. If the gloves ceom off in hockey, you know punches are about to be thrown. (They really don’t just take them off, they flick thier hands down at the ice and the gloves fly off).
An example? If someone is playing politics at work you are getting the short end of the stick, right before you launch your counter-attack you muble to the guy next to you “the gloves are off now”
In hockey, the padded gloves are worn to protect the hands during the normal roughness of the game. The unwritten code of conduct among hockey players says that to punch an opponent with a hockey glove on would be excessively rough treatment. Thus, the custom of dropping the gloves to prepare for the normal rough treatment with bare knuckles.
Dropping the gloves is also a challenge, as in “throwing down the gauntlet”. Your opponent can take up the challenge and drop the gloves himself, or back down.
Boxing gloves protect the hands of the wearer. This allows the boxer to punch much harder. The harder punch more than compensates for any cushioning effect the “hittee” might feel. A couple of points to back this up: It’s not unusual for experienced boxers to break their hands when they get in street fights – they punch with the force they’re used to using in the gym, and their unbraced and unpadded hands can’t take the force. This also explains why fights in the early days of boxing often went on for many, many rounds – the boxers could not hit as hard with bare knuckles, so they weren’t able to do as much damage.
–John Schofield
I always thought that taking off the gloves meant that things were going to get rough, when a knight threw down his glove as a challange to another knight.
0.02
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Boxing gloves were invented in the 1830’s by Jack Braughton, the “Father of Modern Boxing.” (there were earlier incarnations both of boxing and of boxing gloves, but Braughton’s gloves, rules, and practices are direct ancestors of today’s) Braughton’s gloves (called mufflers) were made of cloth, and were used only during practice, to protect the hands and faces of his students.
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Modern padded boxing gloves do indeed protect the hands, and the damage done with them is greater; the greater forces permitted by fighting with gloves causes serious internal injuries, as well as damage to the brain. However, fighting without gloves is bloodier; there are more cuts, and the fingers can be used to great effect on eyes and other tissues (yes, this is cheating --so?).
These stories give two possible scenarios for the origin of “the gloves came off”: (1) the practice where you’re not trying to hurt each other is over; it’s time to fight for real; (2) none of this sissy Marquis of Queensberry crap; time to bleed, buddy. #1 has the advantage of dating back to the 1830’s.
Other possibilities: Gentlemen wear gloves; if a gentleman is about to get ungentlemanly 
he’s going to take the gloves off.
I find the hockey glove/gauntlet throwing explanations unlikely, because they seem anachronistic, but I can’t (that is, I won’t take the time to) prove it.
Dex . It would appear that you have spawned two very distinct lines of reasoning here.
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The phrases handle with kid gloves and handle without gloves. These two phrases are certainly related to each other. I doubt that they have anything to do with boxing.
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The phrase take off the gloves which may derive from boxing.
I now have a third nit to pick.
You introduced the phrase “take off the gloves” when you said
I didn’t see the phrase "take off the gloves in the AHDOI. Did I miss it?
Can you give us a date/cite for the first use of the phrase “take off the gloves?”
Thanks.
This seems highly unlikely. First, it would be the punching itself that is excessively rough treatment. While body checks are allowed in hockey, punching is not. Second, dropping the gloves is just getting the encumberances out of the way so you can really wail on the guy. Note that hockey gloves have a half inch of padding across the fingers and back of the hands. Plus the stiff collar around the wrists.
The gloves don’t have that thick of padding, otherwise you can’t handle the stick. At least bare knuckles is better than stick fighting.
Sigh. I will try to go back and dig out the precise citations, but it won’t be for for a week or so, at best.
In addition to the OED, I also consulted a number of reasonably reliable resources on phrase origins etc.
And, yes, Sandwriter, I didn’t meant to imply that the use of gloves-on, gloves-off was the only such phrase, there are plenty. I just find them very interesting. Another one to note is “downhill” to mean both easier and more difficult. “It’s all downhill from here” can mean things get much much easier, or can mean things are falling apart much faster.
Dex If you will accept my copying here, I will try to help.
From the American Heritage Dictionary of Idioms.
“handle with gloves Also, handle with kid gloves Treat with great care or very gently. as in She has a terrible temper, so try to handle her with kid gloves. This usage probably alludes to the antonym, handle without gloves, meaning “to treat harshly.” Gloves made of kidskin, the hide of a young goat, are soft and pliable, whence the transfer to delicate treatment. [Second half of 1800’s].”
Can we agree that handle without gloves is the first usage and “handle with gloves” and “handle with kid gloves” came from this earlier phrase?
And yes, that section is poorly worded. You have to read slowly. And close.
It makes more sense when you see the phrase "handle without gloves in the OED as the earliest cite.
Following on the double meaning theme, in English if something is described as bollocks (‘That’s complete bollocks’), it’s understood to be utter rubbish, but if it’s the dogs bollocks (‘Your car’s the dog’s bollocks’), it’s understood to be the best there is.
Yeah Supermif,
There’s actually lots of sayings that have opposite meanings!
“Dude, I totally bombed that test.” = failed the test.
“Dude, you’re the bomb!” = you’re the best.
Did you ever see Ren & Stimpy?
Ren, “Well folks, so long till next time!”
Stimpy, “NEXT TIME! When’s THAT?”
Ren, “In a little while MAN.”
Stimpy, “HOW long is THAT?”
…
English is so ambiguous!
Clinton, “I never had sexual relation with that women. Monica Lewensky, I don’t remember her name.” = forgetful man.
-or-
Clinton, “I never had sexual relations with that women Monica Lewensky. I don’t remember her name.” = Perjury!
You make the call!
-Sandwriter
capacitor, have you ever seen a pair of hockey gloves? Because I was checking them out in the store a couple weeks ago, and yes, they do have padding about a half inch (~ 1.3 cm) thick. This is along the outside of the glove, the back along the knuckles and parts that might get hit by the sticks. On the inside, the gripping surface, they are just a thin layer of leather to wrap around the fingers. So they can be thickly padded and still let you control the stick.
http://store3.yimg.com/I/hockeygiant_1702_12901820
http://store3.yimg.com/I/hockeygiant_1700_2754665
In these pictures, you can see the blocky padding on the fingers. It’s a little difficult to tell, but the full square cross section of the fingers is the padding, and then there is a thin layer of leather like regular gloves along the inside that is where the hands go. More pics on the hockeygiant site of a variety of styles of gloves.
But yes, bare knuckles is better than clubbing them with the stick.