Hey!! how many of u think that us teenagers have no values and are just blowing off our parents and screwing-up society?? well it’s b/c parents are telling kids one thing and doing another. they tell their 14 or 15 yr. old drugs are bad and then go and get schnokkerd or high on tobbacco (yes you can get high on these). mabey if adults would give us a better example then we would be more likely to follow their example. we look up to u guys and need your example!! you are our leaders. help us to live right.
**by the way i have a good example and have never had any problems following the rules at home or at school cuz my parent’s actions and words are the same.
However, RoboDude, nobody is trying to force their values down your throat, no matter how much they might like to, because that would alienate you.
I wish.
Anyone who is the least bit familiar with the major issues can probably name numerous examples of holier-than-thou assholes trying to force their beliefs on others.
Everything in politics is a compromise, and I think that some of the recent actions relating to “family values” are excellent modern-day examples.
Including efforts to restrict abortion? Or obstacles to gay rights?
Rosseau, you are unbelievably naive.
Okay, IMHO, (let’s just get that out of the way to keep the flames low)
I don’t mind what anyone else considers their “family values”. What I object to is someone TELLING me that my “family values” should echo his/hers.
RoboDude – I really understood the intention and meaning behind your post. It seems to me that what you are objecting to is the “legislation of morality” and that I can get behind.
Christ in a side-car! I live and make my life in Utah… and believe me, brother! Do they ever TRY to legislate morality around here! They are opposed to same sex marriage, abortion, single-parent adoption, gay couple adoption, and a myriad of other “moral” issues. In their world there is only one true “religion” and one true way of “family”. It angers me because it invalidates everyone who doesn’t echo their values. I am NOT slamming Mormons as a whole; just that in this state they do, for the moment, make up most of our legislative body. This is changing as the demographics of Utah change.
Just because two women wish to wed does not somehow “cheapen” the scope of marriage. I do not see how this can hurt anyone. It boggles my mind that it is fought so hard against. WHY? I really don’t get it. Just because someone chooses to love and wishes to wed someone of the same sex how on EARTH does that invalidate them as a potential foster parent? How on EARTH does this make them morally inferior?
And don’t EVEN get me started on the abortion issue! I can bitch and moan and site study after study about why this is not a legal, moral or political issue. It angers me to no END that it is being debated, and mostly decided, by MEN!!! OOOOOO (her head starts flaming and she counts to 10 before going on)
Family values are great, wonderful, rich in tradition and meaning. But they are as individual as families. No one has the right to dictate what is “correct” or meaningful. Legislating morality, on this issue, is futile. It is not the same as legislation against, say, murder. Most people would agree that killing another is wrong. I just don’t see how trying to legislate “family values” enters that same arena.
Best!
Byz
And the LDS are the only religious group with a majority in a particular area doing that? Right. I can rest easy now. Except for the fact that out here in California, in a a few of the predominately Catholic areas, that church is attempting to do the same.
And, to keep the flames low, Byz, in my opinion, I think you’re seeing the situation in Utah through a filtered lens.
Monty – expound on that. I’m talking about my particular situation. Why I work so hard, sometimes so desperately, in a state where I KNOW I’m outnumbered. I refuse to just sit around and bitch about what the legislators in Utah do; I make my voice heard. I fight, I protest, I donate my time, my effort and my money.
If you are referring to my refusal to bash Mormons outright than I can understand that. I don’t know about you but not all the Mormons I know are behind a lot of what goes down in this state. I refuse to hold every Mormon accountable for what a few of them do. The same way I refuse to hold every Catholic accountable for what a few of them do. So if you are seeing this attitude as a “filtered lens” than in that respect, you are correct.
Perhaps you should build the flames higher and tell me what you really think. Really, I’m a big girl and I can take it.
Best!
Byz
The problem with the “family values” crowd is not so much the values that they are promoting, but that it is all part of a right wing propaganda campaign. These people claim that they want to strengthen families, but when it comes to writing legislation, they promote laws which actually weaken families in the real world.
The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways; the point, however, is to change it. (Karl Marx, 1845)
Well, Byz; since you asked. Try reading a newspaper for a change. In California’s predominately RC areas, that church has been urging folks to vote in a particular fashion; in the Bible Belt’s predominately Baptist areas, that outfit’s “independent” congregations’ leaders have been urging folks to vote in a particular manner.
Just making sure you know it’s not an isolated thing.
BTW, try reading the state constitution, also. IIRC, there’s an outfit called “The Courts” which can assist you in tossing out laws which are unconstitutional. You might even want to read the Federal one, also.
Monty – I’m really taken aback by your attitude toward me. Telling me to try reading a newspaper for a change? Jesus! Where that comment came from I have no idea.
I am well aware of the fact that this kind of activity is wide spread; I never said I was in a unique situation. However, I can’t comment on a situation I’m not all that familiar with. I was talking about the place I call home. I was talking about the way things are here. I am still scratching my head and wondering why you are so mad at me…
I’ve never really bought the “you can’t legilate morality” arguement. I mean, we do it all the time on matters most of us agree on–You can make the argument, for instance, that the only thing wrong with a forty year old man getting an eight year old to suck his cock is that we’ve decided that it is. However, I would fight any legislation to weaken the laws against pediophilia to the gritty end, and I would expect everyone I know to be right there beside me. What do we legislate if it is not morality? That dosen’t mean that every piece of morally based legislation ought to be passed, however–it means that in a democracy there will always be an ongoing heated disscussion about what is moral and what is not. I am pretty libral, socially, so I am not arguing with y’all’s conclusions here, but I don’t really agree with the way you got there. I think it is more effective to say: "Yes, we legislate morality, and we think that it is immoral to deny two people the right to marry becuse they are of the same sex. "
In the same vein, it is sort of silly to expect the government to take no position on “moral” issues. Schools, for instance, will be teaching morality as long as it teaches history and literature. Which is why there will always be an ongoing discusion about which history and which books we teach.
PunditLisa:
(kneeling, legs shaking)
“Will you marry me and have my kids? Even if I’m already engaged?”
Seriously, I am 100% in agreement with what you say. The word “no” needs to be said more often.
“I never lie, but I don’t always say what I’m thinking.”
ENC Heel
Postulate 1: A fool and his money are soon parted.
Postulate 2: A fool with money is dangerous.
Therefore we should allow… nay… encourage this kind of behaviour.
::Blushing:: ENC, I hate to break your (and your fiance’s) heart, but I’m already married! Would you consider a hot and heavy affair?
Geez, you’ve got me flustered. What was the topic again?
Monty - I am sure that each state that has a predominate group of individuals, be it religion or something else, experiences the same thing described by Byz. However, I don’t think that her comment regarding the State of Utah was meant to invalidate the experiences of non-Catholics in California or non-Baptist in the South. She was only referring to her individual experiences.
I am also a resident of Utah and I can assure you that the most of our political leaders are indeed members of the Mormon Church and yes, the values of the church are forced, one way or another, on all residents of Utah. I am not slamming the religion, as a matter of fact, I come from a very active Mormon family, I was raised in the church. If I were intolerable to Mormons, I shouldn’t be living in the State of Utah. Truth is, is that for the most part, they are very kind people, however, they have a common belief that their family values are the one and only correct way.
>^,^<
KITTEN
Fluff yer hair Beula, I’s feelin frisky - M.S.
Diane – thank you. I really wasn’t trying to slam anyone. I don’t hold with the idea that one is a representative of all. I, myself, am not Mormon; however, I respect and indeed understand their point of view and their values. I have my own set of values; I have no desire to enforce them on anyone. I just wish that we could all be a bit more tolerant of others. That, in and of itself, would allow us all to share the same space with less conflict.
If Monty has taken my comments as a deceleration of war than he is in for a let down; I really don’t care to fight on the board anymore. If someone takes offence to my comments I generally apologize for the misunderstanding and try to make friends. I guess I’m just coming from a much better place of late and would rather spread around some love and joy rather than hate and fear.
My best to all, no matter WHAT,
a new kinder and gentler
Byz
Damn Byz, did you get the Prozac refilled or is it just the holiday season that has tamed the wild beast? 
There are more reasons that I can possible list, nor would I want too, of why I no longer practice the Mormon religion. They are personal and private revelations that came from 20 years of soul searching. I will admit that one of those reasons pertains to the intolerance the church, as a whole - not individuals - show to those who are not LDS.
>^,^<
KITTEN
Fluff yer hair Beula, I’s feelin frisky - M.S.
Moral Crusade: Activity undertaken by politicians who are cheating on their wives or diddling little boys.
-John Ralston Saul, The Doubter’s Companion
Four Words: Mandatory Government Controlled Schools.
Take that where ye will.
Dr. Watson
“We fight not for Glory, nor for Wealth, nor for Honour. We fight for Freedom.”
Diane – it is not the season, it is not the chemical wonderland… I am in love… and that changes many, many things. In fact, it changes everything.
Best!
Byz