Fine. Randi’s Challenge is “Show that it exists.” If you do so, he will gladly retract the claim of “paranormal.” Until you show that it exists, it has not been shown that it exists, and therefore cannot be termed “normal.” Or “natural.” Or whatever term you prefer.
And also, I have explained to you many times that it does matter that if someone can cure a disease with sand, it just gets explained away with the suspicion of it being the placebo effect. There is no proof of why sand or sugar can act as medicine . Placebo effect is just a catch all word for when faith healers, sugar pilla and now homeopathy, cure people. Randi always has “an out”. The challenge is bogus.
And “if” is a great word. “If” they could read minds. But they can’t. You know they can’t. I know they can’t. Randi knows they can’t. It’s bogus.
If you can cure a disease with sand, and can construct a test protocol that proves it, no on gives a shit for why it works. The placebo effect is taken care of *before *the test begins.
It’s not being honest at all, especially since I explained it to you once before.
Mangetout never said the hypothetical people sprouting wings were lying and it doesn’t matter if they weren’t. What matters is that they are making a remarkable claim without demonstrating it and people are buying into it. By offering a challenge with a substantial amount of money for a demonstration, one is asking others to put up or shut up and the challenge is beyond fair and honest. That these people may be lying HAS NO BEARING ON THE HONESTY OF THE CHALLENGER and Mangetout never implied it did!
"Placebo effect is the term applied by medical science to the therapeutical and healing effects of inert medicines and/or ritualistic or faith healing manipulations.[1] [2]. When referring to medicines, placebo is a preparation which is pharmacologically inert but which may have a therapeutical effect based solely on the power of suggestion. It may be administered in any of the ways in which pharmaceutical products are administered.[3] Regarding placebo procedures, psychic surgery is a clear example.
Sometimes known as non-specific effects or subject-expectancy effects, a so-called placebo effect occurs when a patient’s symptoms are altered in some way (i.e., alleviated or exacerbated) by an otherwise inert treatment, due to the individual expecting or believing that it will work. Some people consider this to be a remarkable aspect of human physiology; others consider it to be an illusion arising from the way medical experiments are conducted.
No one knows what the hell the placebo effect is. There are all kinds of explanations. But it is unexplained. We could argue unexplainable.
Just because it exist, there is an expectation that it must be within the explainable. Tell me why it is not paranormal. Actually, I know why. Because it exist. That’s it. There is no explanation and you can’t prove there will ever be one. But it won’t be tested because we know it exist. In fact, Randi uses this unexplained phenomenon to explain other phenomenon. That’s just absolutley rich. Explain the unexplained with the unexplained.
You have provided no evidence that any demonstration that both parties have agreed to as being fair would not be paid by Randi. If someone claims to be able to cure blindness with sand and it is to be demonstrated, I have no reason to believe a successful demonstration won’t be awarded the prize.
Do you think if the demonstration were successful, Randi would try to explain it away? No. By having the demonstration he is already agreeing that if the claimant does what he says he can, the money will be paid.
No demostration will ever be successful. The odds are 0. Your argument is moot. You are arguing that if the impossible happened, what woud happen next. That’s moot. It is not a real argument. It’s hypothetical.
The evidence, the science, the odds, the probablity, you know, the real stuff, says there can be no winner. “What if” is invalid. What if monkeys crawled out of my ass and poked your eyeballs out with light sabers ?
Agree to a protocol that will test this, fart out the Jedi monkeys, and the million is yours.
The short answer is that Randi is not qualified to make a judgment, much as I admire him. My opinion is that they made a mistake, and were so excited that they fooled themselves, and, worse, had a press conference before submitting to peer review. The whole review process is set up to catch people making mistakes like this. Their sin was not screwing up, but in digging in their heels and refusing to admit they screwed up. I think the lack of progress in cold fusion shows there is nothing to it.
Not so far - but you can’t prove a negative. (Well, this kind of negative.) What’s the better approach - saying it is impossible for anything supernatural to happen, so I won’t even look, or saying that if something supernatural could happen, here is how to demonstrate it beyond a reasonable doubt. Some people say that if it did happen the laws of nature would have to be extended. We’ve had long threads about this. For now, if something was shown to violate the laws of nature as currently understood, there would be a tremendous revolution in our thinking, which would be great.
Well, my understanding of the challenge is that what is paranormal is defined before the demonstration. If someone demonstrated pk, and later studies revealed a gravity-nullifying organ of the brain, this ability might move from the paranormal, but Randi would still pay. I believe that what is important are specific results under specific conditions. The placebo effect, as we understand it, falls outside the realm of the currently paranormal. Being able to regrow a limb would fall within it.
There is a big distinction between things we don’t have an explanation for yet and things which would be inherently inexplicable under current laws. Randi’s challenge if only for the latter. We don’t know how to cure AIDS yet, but a cure wouldn’t count - unless it involved the laying on of hands or something.
The way science works is to get evidence of something and then explain it. Meteorites were considered nonsense until some had the good sense to fall among witnesses. Randi’s challenge is great because it is a screen to help find real evidence of what we call the paranormal. Since these effects involve people, and people cheat, it is best to have a magician do the screening first.
Since it has already been demonstrated that there are things that he admits fall into the paranormal, that placebos don’t doesn’t really matter. I personally think his money if very safe, but wouldn’t it be cool if he lost it to someone who could repeatedly do “magic” in the real sense. From what I’ve read in his books, he’d be just as thrilled.
Let’s say I truly believe that no human can fit an entire nuclear submarine up his ass. (Which, as it happens, I do.) In fact, I’m so convinced of this that I will give $1 million to anyone who can successfully perform this feat. (Or to his or her next of kin, depending on how things go.) I obtain $1 million and put it in trust, ready and waiting for the first successful submarine-plugger to claim.
It’s quite true that I feel strongly the money will never be claimed, because despite persistent anecdotal claims to the contrary, nobody can insert a 300+ foot submarine into his rectum. However, the money is there. If Iknewit steps up and says confidently “I can do this thing!” he is free to try, and if he succeeds, he walks away with the money. (If not, he can protest that he’s done it dozens of times before, and either blame the “negative energy” emanating from skeptics or nitpick the true, accepted meaning of one or more of the qualifying terms “submarine,” “up,” and “ass.”)
VT’s Submarine Dare, like Randi’s challenge, is no more “bogus” than any bet someone makes about something he feels strongly about, provided the money is on the table— and in Randi’s case, it is.
Disclaimer: the money is not on the table for “VT’s Submarine Dare,” which was solely presented as a hypothetical, so please do not contact me if you believe you possess this ability.
I didn’t think he was either. Just spouting off at the mouth about things he doesn’t underastand.
Which is a good explanation of why the challenge is bogus. Anyone can argue that if it exist, the laws of nature are simply extended = not paranormal.
Pure speculation here. We infact have evidence that Randi has already refused to pay one challenge and and no evidence of paying any. The only evidence we have lends itself to the fact that he does not pay his challenges. The assertions that he would are mere speculation.
I would then expect you to explain the placebo effect, in solid terms, to demonstrate the difference. It is something we know to exist, but has no explanation. The argument of whether it falls within one category or the other is moot until it is demostrated otherwise.
Not always true. Dark matter is only an infered existence but science plows ahead to explain it. Black holes were began with explanations dating to the 18th century and they certainly had no evidence of actual black holes, only a clue that something of that nature probably did exist.
I would disagree. The placebo effect is a wonderful example of why the challenge is bogus. I also disagree that Randi would ever give the money away, considering his comments caught in candid moments. He admits he does not think anyone will ever win and confronted with the possibilty of it being won says he always has “an out”.
I maintain that the challenge is bogus.
I also maintain that dangling a million dollars will inevitably create more frauds and cheats than it will ever expose.
I fail to see why this is a problem. If you prefer the notion that some things cannot ever be understood, then I don’t see why Randi “knowing” paranormal abilities are fake offends you so much. By your own statements, Randi can’t possibly know this, since the paranormal is unknowable. And if Randi doesn’t understand the paranormal, then his confidence is misplaced and the first person who can actually demonstrate a paranormal ability can take advantage of Randi’s overconfidence, to the tune of a cool million bucks.
Actually, I’m starting to feel sorry for Randi. All his confidence will come to a crashing halt as soon as someone gets around to demonstrating a paranormal ability. The impending cataclysm of his hubris is almost tragic, an avalanche of despair triggered by someone moving a penny with his mind.
I better send him a donation to ease the inevitable sting.
Your proposed challenge is as bogus as Randi’s.
No one has ever shoved a submarine up their ass. There is no evidence that shoving a submarine up someone’s ass is possible. Because you truely believe that it is impossible and state so, your are making a disingenuos proposition. It’s bogus. You do not intend to award the prize. You in fact, intend to not award the prize.
I am not offended at all by Randi’s beleifs. Actually, I am amused by Randi. The problem is exactly what you have said. Randi knows the abilities are fake. If he knows the abilities are fake, he also knows the prize offer is fake.
And also, for anyone who doubts that Randi backed out of paying a $1,000 challenge, he has it posted to his website. He made the offer, was proved wrong and failed to pay. He has a very long winded explanation of the event on his website where after a long ramble and explanation of his side of the story, he is still wrong. And by the end of the story he I guess he had hoped that anyone reading would have forgotten about the money he promised to pay but never did. He gives what I presume to be the closest thing to an apology that he knows how to give: "Well, there it is, warts and all…. Next week, we’ll lighten up again — a bit — and provide a little more variety. I had to publish this, because I’d agreed to do so. I hope you’re still with me…. "
He lost. He never paid. He’s a cheat. A really good, slimy, squirming cheat, but no less a cheat. But just as he had hoped, there are plenty of you still with him despite his own admission that he doesn’t pay his challenges.
I don’t see how you reconcile this with your belief in wart charming (i.e. at least one ability Randi would dismiss is, in your experience, real), and all your statements that Randi doesn’t understand the paranormal. How can he “know” anything certain about something he doesn’t understand?
I would very much like to see a direct link to this confession.
You got it.
I believe in wart charming ? That’s news to me. I visited one, the warts were charmed, they went away. I never had any faith in the wart charming and have said as much.
Next time, read your links thoroughly before posting them. Your claims as to the contents do not match up with the contents themselves.