Tariff on imported solar panels -- a veritable smorgasbord of ignorance!

[CarnalK]

Does anyone here think Obama was sticking a finger in the eye of environmentalists and trying to help out coal when he instituted a 31% tariff on Chinese solar panels a mere 5 years ago?

[elucidator]

Why, no! Clearly, this is a blatant example of liberal hypocrisy! Please expose the details of this travesty!

[CarnalK]

@elucidator

Why, no! Clearly, this is a blatant example of liberal hypocrisy! Please expose the details of this travesty!

Not hypocrisy, ignorance. I bet you had no idea Obama had done the exact same thing. So now that you know, do you think Obama was sticking a finger in the eye of environmentalists and trying to help out coal when he instituted a 31% tariff on Chinese solar panels a mere 5 years ago?

[rat_avatar]

@CarnalK

Does anyone here think Obama was sticking a finger in the eye of environmentalists and trying to help out coal when he instituted a 31% tariff on Chinese solar panels a mere 5 years ago?

Obama’s actions and tariffs merely accelerated Chinese solar-panel makers’ moves to other Asian countries, such as Malaysia and Vietnam.

Trump is working under the knowledge that it won’t save American companies, as the (wrong) protectionist behavior didn’t protect domestic producer when Obama did it either.

Maybe I am missing the point, but is there some special form of valor for copying the errors of another? Or do you have quotes from Obama making claims like:

“There is a cooling, and there’s a heating. I mean, look, it used to not be climate change, it used to be global warming. That wasn’t working too well because it was getting too cold all over the place,”

OR

“The ice caps were going to melt, they were going to be gone by now, but now they’re setting records. They’re at a record level,”

OR are you ignoring his belief in “Clean Coal”?
But yes, in general, I would expect he would copy the things that Obama did right, and not copy his mistakes.

[CarnalK]

Anyway there’s a decent little article about this on Popular Science. Some snippets:

The majority of solar installations in the United States—roughly 80 percent—use imported panels. Most come from Malaysia (36 percent) and South Korea (21 percent), with China, Thailand, and Vietnam each contributing 8 to 9 percent. The raw materials are sourced from all over the world, a reflection of the industry’s globalized supply chain.
…
Strangely enough, while these tariffs are pricey enough to reduce installations, they are probably not significant enough to bolster American manufacturing. That’s because building up the infrastructure necessary to produce abundant solar panels would be time-consuming and expensive. “It takes time to build a value chain that’s that efficient,” O’Sullivan says.
…

For residential systems, like rooftop solar panels, we’re likely to see a 3 percent increase in price, according to analysts at Bloomberg New Energy Finance estimate . For solar farms, which produce solar energy to feed to a utility or shared grid, the cost hike is likely on the order of 10 percent.
…
This ball started rolling back in April 2017 when Suniva, a Chinese-owned, Georgia-based solar cell manufacturer, filed bankruptcy. The company attributed its decline to the low prices of foreign panels. In June, it filed a trade suit asking the U.S. government to consider placing import tariffs on foreign manufacturers to give Suniva and its ilk a leg up.

In October 2017, the International Trade Commission released the result of its analysis of tariffs on imported panels. The commission recommended tariffs as high as 35 percent. Initially, Bloomberg reported, “[t]he U.S. solar industry let out a collective sigh of relief” after these numbers were released, as many installers feared much worse. On Monday, the Trump administration announced it had settled on its own final number: a tariff of 30 percent.

[CarnalK]

@rat_avatar

Maybe I am missing the point, but is there some special form of valor for copying the errors of another?

Yes, you missed the point. I am not defending the tariff, I am saying that because Obama did it too maybe the reasoning behind it isn’t on your “Top 10 things I hate about Trump” list.

[rat_avatar]

@CarnalK

Yes, you missed the point. I am not defending the tariff, I am saying that because Obama did it too maybe the reasoning behind it isn’t on your “Top 10 things I hate about Trump” list.

Did it work when you told your parents “But Bobby did it too”?

Or are you ignoring the fact that the market was tiny in comparision, it didn’t work, and that in general copying the errors of your predecessor doesn’t make you a good president.

Also point out where I said it was in the top 10 list…that is a strawman.

[GIGObuster]

@CarnalK

Yes, you missed the point. I am not defending the tariff, I am saying that because Obama did it too maybe the reasoning behind it isn’t on your “Top 10 things I hate about Trump” list.

Uh, Whataboutism does not excuses this as being also a reason to hate Trump.

See John Oliver Break Down Trump's Three Dangerous Manipulation Tactics

Trump’s slightly subtler tactic is a term Oliver called “whataboutism,” a fallacy with roots in old Soviet propaganda that shifts any given topic to another, potentially irrelevant one. “It implies that all actions regardless of context share a moral equivalency,” says Oliver. “And since nobody is perfect, all criticism is hypocritical and everyone should do whatever they want … It doesn’t solve a problem or win an argument. The point is just to muddy the waters, which just makes the other side mad.”

[puddleglum]

@CarnalK

Anyway there’s a decent little article about this on Popular Science. Some snippets:

3 percent is bad but it is not much. The realproblem with solar in this country is not tariffs but local regulation. Local regulations such as building codes and permitting doubles the cost of residential solar. That is part of the reason Australia has more residential solar systems installed than the US despite have 7% of the population.

[CarnalK]

@GIGObuster

Uh, Whataboutism does not excuses this as being also a reason to hate Trump.

John Oliver Breaks Down Trump's Dangerous Speaking Tactics

My god that phrase is being abused. You cannot possibly think that bringing up Obama and Trump doing the exact same thing five years apart is a “shift to another potentially irrelevent topic”. You just can’t.

[GIGObuster]

@CarnalK

My god that phrase is being abused. You cannot possibly think that bringing up Obama and Trump doing the exact same thing five years apart is a “shift to another potentially irrelevent topic”. You just can’t.

I think you are abusing the meaning of “potential”.

The point stands.

[GIGObuster]

@puddleglum

3 percent is bad but it is not much. The realproblem with solar in this country is not tariffs but local regulation. Local regulations such as building codes and permitting doubles the cost of residential solar. That is part of the reason Australia has more residential solar systems installed than the US despite have 7% of the population.

A big problem indeed, but as the article points out too:

So what now?

What’s the solution? How do we cut the red tape? Can the U.S. regain leadership in the residential solar market?

Three regulatory changes can immediately half the cost of residential solar.

[ol]

[li]Replace permits with online applications, a process that has been successfully demonstrated overseas.[/li][li] Remove the unnecessary elements of the NEC code that make no discernable impact on the resulting safety and quality of solar installations, as has also been proven overseas. [/li][li] ** Kill tariffs that kill domestic jobs and let the free market deliver high-quality, cheap panels.**[/li][/ol]

[elucidator]

China was desperate, they totally lack our resources in clean coal. So, they gambled, they made the investment, and now they go rejoicing, bringing in the sheaves. We shoulda, we coulda, we didn’t. So, once again, it isn’t the big eat the small, its the quick eat the slow.

[CarnalK]

@GIGObuster

I think you are abusing the meaning of “potential”.

The point stands.

Too bad you don’t actually have a point.

The funny thing is the trade lawsuit that kicked this off was launched by a Chinese owned company, though American based. This whole thing is about competing interests of American manufacturers and installers, not between solar and coal. It has been going on well before Trump as evidenced by Obama’s tariffs. Not whataboutismed, evidenced.

[GIGObuster]

[quote=“CarnalK, post:34, topic:807447”]

Too bad you don’t actually have a point.

As rat avatar saw it too, It was your statement that was pointless.

@CarnalK

The funny thing is the trade lawsuit that kicked this off was launched by a Chinese owned company, though American based. This whole thing is about competing interests of American manufacturers and installers, not between solar and coal. It has been going on well before Trump as evidenced by Obama’s tariffs. Not whataboutismed, evidenced.

If you had seen what I commented in the other thread, you would had notice that I pointed at that earlier.

Again, you are ignoring that whataboutism is not just about unrelated things.

[elucidator]

…It has been going on well before Trump as evidenced by Obama’s tariffs. Not whataboutismed, evidenced.

I appreciate the honesty with which you downplay the significance of your point. Not everybody would do that, its refreshing.

[scr4]

@CarnalK

Not hypocrisy, ignorance. I bet you had no idea Obama had done the exact same thing. So now that you know, do you think Obama was sticking a finger in the eye of environmentalists and trying to help out coal when he instituted a 31% tariff on Chinese solar panels a mere 5 years ago?

The effect is completely reversed by what other policies are instituted at the same time.

If I remember correctly, Obama provided billions of dollars in subsidies to the US solar industry while instituting the tariff and tightening the regulation on coal. That was intended to have the effect of boosting the US solar industry and making it more competitive against China. (It didn’t work.)

Trump is instituting a similar tariff. But I don’t believe he has discussed any subsidies for solar industry, and he is working hard to de-regulate the coal industry. I don’t see how anyone can claim this is intended to boost the US solar industry.

[elucidator]

So you hippies think you can just keep draining the Sun’s energy forever?

[CarnalK]

[quote=“GIGObuster, post:35, topic:807447”]

@CarnalK

Too bad you don’t actually have a point.

As rat avatar saw it too, It was your statement that was pointless.

If you had seen what I commented in the other thread, you would had notice that I pointed at that earlier.

Again, you are ignoring that whataboutism is not just about unrelated things.

You are ignoring that not everything is a whataboutism.

[CarnalK]

@scr4

The effect is completely reversed by what other policies are instituted at the same time.

If I remember correctly, Obama provided billions of dollars in subsidies to the US solar industry while instituting the tariff and tightening the regulation on coal. That was intended to have the effect of boosting the US solar industry and making it more competitive against China. (It didn’t work.)

Trump is instituting a similar tariff. But I don’t believe he has discussed any subsidies for solar industry, and he is working hard to de-regulate the coal industry. I don’t see how anyone can claim this is intended to boost the US solar industry.

Well there are of course a bunch of differences, I am most certainly not saying Trump worries about the environment as much as Obama. Trump is simply implementing an International Trade Commission recommendation at the end of the day though. Obama was in a bit of a spot too because the government had guaranteed a half billion in loans to a manufacturer that was going bankrupt, so he had some motivation to “look tough on China” himself.