Tarot and Religion (kind of long)

[Spoons]

Some time ago, my wife ran into a problem (for lack of a better term) on another board.

My wife enjoys a certain handicraft as a hobby, and has been an enthusiastic participant in a forum devoted to that hobby. (Sorry about the vagueness, but I don’t want to be more specific, lest some overenthusiastic but naive Dopers run over there and rip them a new one.) My wife also enjoys studying the Tarot, and doing card readings for friends and such. She’s done Tarot for years.

Like many such message boards, this handicraft board has a “General Discussion” forum, where discussions of non-handicraft-related things can take place. I understand it is like our MPSIMS, where folks gently vent, share experiences and stories, and for all I know, squee over kittens. But one of the rules for the General Discussion forum is that politics and religion are forbidden topics. Mods can and will lock off or delete threads that develop into discussions of these topics.

But General Discussion is not limited to non-handicraft things, and one day, somebody mentioned a handicraft pattern a friend had developed. It was based, they said, on something called “the Queen of Cups,” which as you may know, is a Tarot card. My wife posted a long explanation of what the Queen of Cups card meant, and how she would interpret it in a reading. Her post was well-received by many posters, including the mods and the pattern developer (who registered on the board specifically to thank my wife).

But my wife’s post was not well-received by all. One or two posters took great umbrage to a post about a Tarot card, and complained to the mods saying (paraphrased), “We’re not supposed to talk about religion here. Tarot is religious. Take that thread down.” Now, according to my wife, these posters were religious in some way (her description made them sound like Fundamentalist Christians, but I don’t know for sure), and when they had introduced Christianity into discussions before, had been told/warned by the Mods. Now, they wanted the mods to do the same thing to my wife and her post, because, in their eyes, Tarot was religious and why could she talk about Tarot when they couldn’t talk about Christianity? I’ll spare you all the details of the e-mails that went flying around, and just say that the thread was locked off, though no Mod told my wife off. I believe one did write to say that it wasn’t personal; it was just to get the Christians to stop screeching about the board’s unfairness against Christianity and support for what they believed to be a religion: Tarot.

I can pretty much guess what Dopers would say on the question of “Is Tarot religious?” so I’ll throw out some narrower questions for discussion:

– Religious Dopers: Has your pastor/minister/priest/rabbi/imam ever warned you against using Tarot cards or having your cards read by another? (This seemed to be where the controversy was coming from: the religious posters’ pastors had specifically warned their congregations against Tarot, and tea leaves, and other similar things.) Are they regarded, in your faith, as part of the occult? As somehow anti-religious?

– Non-religious Dopers: If you were my wife, how would you react to having a post that you regarded as non-religious, treated as if it was? (FTR: my wife was disappointed, but basically said “Meh” and moved on.)

– All Dopers: If you were a Mod on that handicraft board, how might you have handled the situation?

[Rasa]

Religious Dopers: Has your pastor/minister/priest/rabbi/imam ever warned you against using Tarot cards or having your cards read by another? (This seemed to be where the controversy was coming from: the religious posters’ pastors had specifically warned their congregations against Tarot, and tea leaves, and other similar things.) Are they regarded, in your faith, as part of the occult? As somehow anti-religious?

I was raised Roman Catholic but am non-religious now. I certainly remember being warned against Ouiija boards, palm readings, psychic readings, Tarot. They were all vaguely considered Satanic and the like, occult.

Non-religious Dopers: If you were my wife, how would you react to having a post that you regarded as non-religious, treated as if it was? (FTR: my wife was disappointed, but basically said “Meh” and moved on.)

I would’ve handled it the same. Shrug and move on. I may have been tempted to fight ignorance and explain why Tarot isn’t a religion, but probably wouldn’t have bothered, as that type of fundamentalist/holy roller/whatever they were ain’t going to be changed by education.

All Dopers: If you were a Mod on that handicraft board, how might you have handled the situation?

As a mod, I would’ve made a modly post explaining (with cites) to the offenderati that Tarot isn’t a religion, and left the thread.

[badbadrubberpiggy]

Neat! I’ll be interested to see where this thread goes, since I actually read the thread you’re talking about. I personally found it interesting & informative.

Your wife & I share a common interest!

[WhyNot]

Tarot is only as religious as gambling, fornication, alcohol, caffeine, baring your midriff in mixed company and swearing. Some religious may forbid some or all of them, but that does not make them (competing) religions. Sure, it is USED by people of other religions which some Christians sects find offensive, but it itself is not a religion, nor is its use, even by those unfavored sects, a religious use. It’s also used by atheists and Christians.

Are they going to call a bowl of water a religion, too? It’s on my altar, used in my religious ceremonies.

If I was a mod, I would have told the whiners to get stuffed.

[Kalhoun]

Not being a dabbler in either Tarot or religion, I can only tell you what I’ve heard. Supposedly, and as far as some christians are concerned, the act of telling futures is the devil working against god. You aren’t supposed to believe in any magic other than god magic. That’s why it’s considered religious (in the antichrist sense of the word).

[Antinor01]

@Spoons

I can pretty much guess what Dopers would say on the question of “Is Tarot religious?” so I’ll throw out some narrower questions for discussion:

– Religious Dopers: Has your pastor/minister/priest/rabbi/imam ever warned you against using Tarot cards or having your cards read by another? (This seemed to be where the controversy was coming from: the religious posters’ pastors had specifically warned their congregations against Tarot, and tea leaves, and other similar things.) Are they regarded, in your faith, as part of the occult? As somehow anti-religious?

– Non-religious Dopers: If you were my wife, how would you react to having a post that you regarded as non-religious, treated as if it was? (FTR: my wife was disappointed, but basically said “Meh” and moved on.)

– All Dopers: If you were a Mod on that handicraft board, how might you have handled the situation?

Your first question assumes a certain kind of religious when you say ‘religious dopers’. The use of tarot cards in divination is certainly used by many varieties of neo-pagans as part of their religion. I wouldn’t say tarot cards in and of themselves are religious, my BF reads cards and doesn’t consider it a religious exercise at all.

So it’s really a tough question, I would have to go with…sometimes they are religious and sometimes they are not. In the interest of ‘not discussing religion’ I would probably lean toward not allowing discussion of tarot card interpretations if I were asked to make a call. It would depend on the circumstances.

[Kalhoun]

@WhyNot

If I was a mod, I would have told the whiners to get stuffed.

I’m guessing that because the mods made the rule of “no religious discussion”, they probably made the rule so no one would ever question* their * beliefs. And those beliefs include the idea that Tarot is the tool of the devil. Just a guess based on Stuff I’ve Heard But Don’t Care About Enough To Investigate Further.

[saoirse]

@WhyNot

Tarot is only as religious as gambling, fornication, alcohol, caffeine, baring your midriff in mixed company and swearing. Some religious may forbid some or all of them, but that does not make them (competing) religions. Sure, it is USED by people of other religions which some Christians sects find offensive, but it itself is not a religion, nor is its use, even by those unfavored sects, a religious use. It’s also used by atheists and Christians.

I disagree with this. Tarot cards are a focus of the faith of many people. It’s as religious as a discussion of the Stations off the Cross. Now if I posted “I made a pattern based on St Veronica,” that wouldn’t be religious. If you replied with a description of St Veronica, her participation in The Passion, and when it’s best to pray to her, then you be introducing religion to the board. Sorry, I’m with the mods.

[WhyNot]

@Kalhoun

Not being a dabbler in either Tarot or religion, I can only tell you what I’ve heard. Supposedly, and as far as some christians are concerned, the act of telling futures is the devil working against god. You aren’t supposed to believe in any magic other than god magic. That’s why it’s considered religious (in the antichrist sense of the word).

I understand that that’s where their concern comes from, but it still doesn’t make them correct.

re·li·gion (r-ljn)
n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Antinor01, we do a lot of things that aren’t religious. We camp, we have bonfires (only some of which are religious in nature) we read books, and we defecate twice daily. We like coloring books with fairies in them (at least I do!), and we like to hang sparkly things and windchimes from the trees. None of these things fall under any reasonable definition of religion. I won’t say you *can’t *use Tarot in a religious context, but that doesn’t make them, the cards, or their meanings, religious in nature or a religion. It just isn’t.

saoirse, who are these people you’re talking about? How are they a “focus of faith?” (And what does that mean, exactly?) For whom is a Tarot card an object of worship? Who thinks a Tarot card is the creator of the universe? Who follows the Tarot as a core set of beliefs, values or practices?

[Dunderman]

@Spoons

– All Dopers: If you were a Mod on that handicraft board, how might you have handled the situation?

Well, how do they handle posts about other things that are not part of big established religions but still belong to what most antireligious types detest, like ghosts and clairvoyance and UFOs and faeries? I think the same policy should apply to tarot, and no different.

[Kalhoun]

@WhyNot

I understand that that’s where their concern comes from, but it still doesn’t make them correct.

[/QUOTE]

I’m not saying they’re right; I’m just saying that’s a possible motivation for the rule, the outrage, and the dislike of Tarot.

[Antinor01]

@WhyNot

Antinor01, we do a lot of things that aren’t religious. We camp, we have bonfires (only some of which are religious in nature) we read books, and we defecate twice daily. We like coloring books with fairies in them (at least I do!), and we like to hang sparkly things and windchimes from the trees. None of these things fall under any reasonable definition of religion. I won’t say you *can’t *use Tarot in a religious context, but that doesn’t make them, the cards, or their meanings, religious in nature or a religion. It just isn’t.

I understand what you’re saying here, but practicing divination doesn’t fall under the same catergory as camping. I personally don’t use tarot as part of my religious life because I find they just don’t really work well for me. I do practice fire and mirror magic though, do I consider fire a religious item? Usually no, but if I was describing a fire and how I used it in my religious practice it could properly be construed as discussion of religion. I’m looking at tarot interpretation the same way, the cards themselves are not religious but when describing how to interpret them it could be seen that way.

[zelie_zelerton]

@Kalhoun

Not being a dabbler in either Tarot or religion, I can only tell you what I’ve heard. Supposedly, and as far as some christians are concerned, the act of telling futures is the devil working against god. You aren’t supposed to believe in any magic other than god magic. That’s why it’s considered religious (in the antichrist sense of the word).

That’s an interesting way of putting it. From that perspective it’s only associated with religion if you live by the rules of Christianity. You have to start from the premise of believing in their specific religious rules to see it as another religion. Non-Christian religions will either use it or not use it depending on their specific rules.

As a non-religious person I’d have to go with your wife’s take of ‘meh’. Fundamentalist Offenderati aren’t worth bothering about and can’t be educated.

As a Mod I’d probably have locked it due to the squabbling alone.

[Kalhoun]

@zelie zelerton

That’s an interesting way of putting it. From that perspective it’s only associated with religion if you live by the rules of Christianity. You have to start from the premise of believing in their specific religious rules to see it as another religion. Non-Christian religions will either use it or not use it depending on their specific rules.

As a non-religious person I’d have to go with your wife’s take of ‘meh’. Fundamentalist Offenderati aren’t worth bothering about and can’t be educated.

As a Mod I’d probably have locked it due to the squabbling alone.

(My “wife’s take”?..I’m confused. I am my wife! Well, you know…I’m a woman and I don’t have a spouse who posts here).

Yes, I’ve only heard objection to Tarot in relation to a christian perspective. I’m not sure if other religions find it offensive or not.

[nashiitashii]

@zelie zelerton

As a non-religious person I’d have to go with your wife’s take of ‘meh’. Fundamentalist Offenderati aren’t worth bothering about and can’t be educated.

As a Mod I’d probably have locked it due to the squabbling alone.

I’ll agree with you on that one, if only for the fact that Tarot, magic, and divination fall into a “can be religious or non-religious depending on context” area for me. I don’t personally use any of them in a religious ritual, but I knew people who did. I also just don’t have the patience to argue with people who are insistent on forcing their beliefs on everyone else, so as a Mod, I’d give both sides a warning against discussing the “gray area” stuff and bickering and then shut down the thread if it continued.
Since the rules apply against speaking about religion and nobody can agree on whether it’s religious, it’s easier to avoid having squabbles on its status as religious or non-religious by putting it under the “controversial gray area” heading and being careful about it. Religious fundamentalists aren’t getting any positive feedback from anyone but themselves, so encouraging their martyr complexes isn’t going to help anything.

[Cat_Fight]

As long as they’re not discussing horoscopes, either, I guess they have a case. Better that than have the whole discussion turn into a debate on what seems like a sweet lil’ ol’ crafting board. (That sort of thing once happened to a friend of mine- she was on a filmmaking board and someone mentioned ouija boards and suddenly all the fundamentalist christians came out of the woodwork. 20 pages that argument was)

[saoirse]

@WhyNot

saoirse, who are these people you’re talking about?

Well, my ex-wife for one.

How are they a “focus of faith?” (And what does that mean, exactly?)

They are used in rituals based on bringing about supernatural events.

For whom is a Tarot card an object of worship? Who thinks a Tarot card is the creator of the universe? Who follows the Tarot as a core set of beliefs, values or practices?

I didn’t say “object of worship.” I didn’t say anyone believes that tarot cards created the universe. Please direct those questions to the person who did.

[Spoons]

@Priceguy

Well, how do they handle posts about other things that are not part of big established religions but still belong to what most antireligious types detest, like ghosts and clairvoyance and UFOs and faeries? I think the same policy should apply to tarot, and no different.

Actually, I get the impression that they don’t discuss such matters much, if at all. It’s mostly, as I said, gentle venting of the “My spouse/child/boss is driving me crazy” sort, what the kids did at school, what made the poster happy today, help and advice, and similar stuff. Perhaps badbadrubberpiggy can define it better.

@Kalhoun

(My “wife’s take”?..I’m confused. I am my wife! Well, you know…I’m a woman and I don’t have a spouse who posts here).

I think zelie’s remark was directed at me (the OP), who was posting about his wife. My wife. Okay, now I’m confusing myself.

Thanks for all the responses so far, and please continue–this is interesting.

[badbadrubberpiggy]

@Spoons

Actually, I get the impression that they don’t discuss such matters much, if at all. It’s mostly, as I said, gentle venting of the “My spouse/child/boss is driving me crazy” sort, what the kids did at school, what made the poster happy today, help and advice, and similar stuff. Perhaps badbadrubberpiggy can define it better.

That’s pretty much it - it’s a very polite board, and both politics & religion are “not to be discussed”. People vent about life in general, and there are serious discussions, but generally if someone has an opinion that’s controversial, it seems like they keep it to themselves. There are disagreements, but they’re very civil - if a discussion gets heated, generally they thread gets closed (it doesn’t happen often). Closing the thread Spoons is talking about was pretty much par for the course. Wether they came to the conclusion that Tarot was religious or not, the discussion was starting to get too heated for the board.

I personally have never seen any discussion of the supernatural on there - the vast majority of the board is dedicated to the crafting. The more serious discussions are usually centered around family/life issues.

[Kalhoun]

@Antinor01

I understand what you’re saying here, but practicing divination doesn’t fall under the same catergory as camping. I personally don’t use tarot as part of my religious life because I find they just don’t really work well for me. I do practice fire and mirror magic though, do I consider fire a religious item? Usually no, but if I was describing a fire and how I used it in my religious practice it could properly be construed as discussion of religion. I’m looking at tarot interpretation the same way, the cards themselves are not religious but when describing how to interpret them it could be seen that way.

I see what you’re saying and I agree. I think they can only be used in two ways: as meaningless entertainment or as a tool that is a meaningful “read” of a person’s life and/or future, based on the chance drawing of like-sized pieces of cardboard. The cards themselves aren’t the religion, but they facilitate the perceived transfer of information from another world to this world. The meaning of the cards is subject to individual interpretation. They would be more comparable to a bible than a religion.

Am I close?