Tarot and Religion (kind of long)

In My Humble Opinion
61

[QUOTE=featherlou]
I don’t believe for a second that the meditation tapped into some occult or religious magic, but simply my own conscious and sub-conscious mind; once I got out of my own way, I could see more clearly. I think the things you’ve mentioned are tools used for getting out of your own way.
[/QUOTE]

And that’s pretty much it. It’s a tool for delving into your own internal processes and figuring out what is there.

For an example of blockage: I’m currently in a long process of trying to figure out what I can do for a living beyond what I’m currently doing, which isn’t paying the bills. The answers I get tend to be very confused and frustrated, because I don’t fucking know what to do. Even deep within, the answers just are not there. So it’s been of no use, try as I might, to ask what I can do for a living in order to pay the bills. All I can do is try to deal with the various problems, issues, fears and so-forth, one at a time, hoping that a better answer to the job/career thing comes out once I get the mud out of the way.

And that is exactly, as you say, “getting out of my own way”.

In the I Ching, this would be the mud in the well.

Hexagram 48: The Well Changing to Hexagram 5: Waiting
Six in the first place means;

One does not drink the mud of the Well.
No animals come to an old well.

So now this is not Tarot, but it’s a similar divination tool. The Well is the deeper unconscious mind. The Mud (issues, fears and neuroses) blocks the well and leads to the result, Waiting.

62

In answer to the OP:

In my religious upbringing, I was constantly warned by pastors and teachers to not use any forms of fortune telling-- seances, palm readings, horoscopes, ouija boards, tarot cards, and so on. Some of the warnings claimed that Satan and/or demons could use them to somehow do things to people; some of the warnings acknowledged that the divination media weren’t sinful themselves, but the act of attempting to foretell the future itself was a sin. Even dippy things such as the NES “game” Taboo: The Sixth Sense were considered sinful by some.

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
[…] there is an understood element of magic, if you will, in the dealing of the cards.
[/QUOTE]

The folks that I know who have used tarot cards have had a superstition regarding their use: decks can be used by only one person. Decks are purchased in sealed packages, aren’t purchased used, etc. Some were touchy about others even touching a card. I’ve always interpreted this superstition as being a tacit acknowledgement of a belief in a supernatural aspect to the cards.

Do those who use the deck as a personal psychological tool still follow this superstition? Would you use a used/open deck?

63

[QUOTE=Student Driver]
The folks that I know who have used tarot cards have had a superstition regarding their use: decks can be used by only one person. Decks are purchased in sealed packages, aren’t purchased used, etc. Some were touchy about others even touching a card. I’ve always interpreted this superstition as being a tacit acknowledgement of a belief in a supernatural aspect to the cards.

Do those who use the deck as a personal psychological tool still follow this superstition? Would you use a used/open deck?
[/QUOTE]

This is a really good question. My answer is that I do share cards with friends. Also, the querant (the person asking the question) is asked to shuffle and divide the cards. Yet outside of friends and querants, I’m not very comfortable with people I don’t know touching my cards and I really don’t like it when people I actively dislike touch my cards. Why? It’s not because I think they’re soiling the juju, it’s because my cards are valued personal items akin to my favorite books from childhood. It’s because I know people can be careless and bend, fold, spindle, mutilate or lose a card with a careless grasp. It’s also because they are personal items almost in the sense of tampons - ask, and I’m happy to give you one. Just wander into my bathroom and start rooting under my sink, and I’m going to be rather annoyed and feel invaded. Tell people to be careful, and they might, until they get distracted. Tell them you don’t let anyone at all touch your cards, and they’re more likely to listen.

I have purchased used cards for use. Before using them, I do clean them, both physically and energetically, because it makes me feel good to do so. I do the same thing with clothing I buy at the thrift store. I do believe people leave behind a personal energy signal on things that they have owned or touched frequently - think about how many cars out there look like yours, but only yours feels like yours when you sit in it. That’s the “energy” of which I speak. A scientist would probably call it something else - odor, small flaws you’re only subconsciously aware of, the specific crush of the seat cushions - all those unconscious signatures you leave behind. I call it “energy” 'cause it’s shorthand, and since matter/energy is ALL-ONE! (Thank you, Dr. Bronner), it’s not inaccurate, although it may not be exciting to those who think real magic is what happens in Harry Potter or at the hands of an angry demon.

64

[QUOTE=Student Driver]
The folks that I know who have used tarot cards have had a superstition regarding their use: decks can be used by only one person. Decks are purchased in sealed packages, aren’t purchased used, etc. Some were touchy about others even touching a card. I’ve always interpreted this superstition as being a tacit acknowledgement of a belief in a supernatural aspect to the cards.
[/QUOTE]
You just reminded me of an incident from back when I was a college student. It’s not germane to the subject matter of the thread, but at the risk of hijacking my own thread, I’ll throw it out for amusement’s sake.

Once a week, my friends and I would play poker. Stakes were not high; we were all college students. But it was a fun, harmless, and (usually) inexpensive way of getting away from the books and lectures for a few hours each week. There was always beer, and often cheap cigars too. Good times, for us 20-year-olds.

One poker night, nobody had a deck of cards. “I thought Charlie was bringing them.” “No, Bob was supposed to bring them.” And so forth. But one of the guys had, for some reason known only to him, a Tarot deck in his knapsack. So we removed the Major Arcana (cards like the Lovers, the Star, the Tower, and so on), and also removed the Knights from the Minor Arcana. We were left with a 52-card deck, much like a regular poker deck, except with different suits. Yep, you could get a flush in Wands, in this game.

I’ve also heard of the “one person per Tarot deck” superstition, so I’ve always wondered about the deck we used in that game. How did it react to being handled by a bunch of beer-drinking, cigar-smoking, small-time not-really-gamblers for a purpose as flippant as a poker game? Of course, if you just regarded the cards as pieces of cardboard with pretty pictures on them, that’s one thing. But if there was superstition attached…?

At any rate, Student Driver, thanks for reminding me of an amusing incident from my youth. And for the thoughtful response, too!

65

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Thank you for this explanation. However, no one has touched on this point, and I’d like anyone with experience to just chime in: Why the cards? Say I ask you for clarification on my job sitch (which is what I posed to Spoons’ wife). She dealt the cards and such-and-such came up. Ten minutes later, I could ask her or someone else the same question and presumably, different cards come up. If I look at Tarot as kind of a “poor man’s psychology”, I can see its purpose. But there is an understood element of magic, if you will, in the dealing of the cards. See what I’m getting at? Anyone?
[/QUOTE]

Well, that’s common to a lot of divination techniques. Chimera mentioned the I Ching, which is certainly not a deck of cards but it is used in similar ways to Tarot, as are runes and various other tools.

And if you ask 10 different practitioners of these arts you’d likely get 10 different answers - which is sort of consistent with the whole business :slight_smile:

The answer I’ve heard most frequently is that because the universe is ever changing, moment to moment, the tool in use is also ever changing.

There is also the common custom of NOT re-asking a question or reconsullting the tool on a frequent basis - probably to avoid just such a thing.

Most techniques I’m familar with require the questioner to touch, cut the deck, or otherwise contact the cards..

There’s actually a tradition out there (dying out, I hope) that decks intended for ritual use should not be purchased but rather stolen - although I must say, the sort of folks adhering to that are not the sorts I’d be going to for anything, for any reason.

There is also the tradition of the pictures on the cards needing a border, to keep at bay bad influences.

There are a LOT of diverse superstitiosn and customs surronding the Tarot. It is impossible for anyone to keep to all of them, because quite a few are contradictory.

It certainly can be. It can also be a matter of not wanting other people to treat casually something you regard as important. It’s not so much taboo as rude - I mean, if you spit in my crystal punch bowl I can wash the spit out with no problem, but I am unlikely to ever invite you to party at my house again, ya know?

Depends.

Certainly, if I inherited a deck from someone I respect/admire/have a positive relationship with I’d use it. Some decks I have because I thought the artwork looked nice, so they aren’t ritual objects in the same sense as my main working deck - which I bought home opened because the artist signed one of the cards for me as part of the purchase. In group rituals everyone doesn’t pull out a deck, so in a sense everyone in the Circle is “borrowing” a card chosen for such a rituals.

But then, I follow a path with very few adamant rules - other NeoPagans are much more rule bound than I am.

Think I’m much more picky about someone else handling my athame, but I’ve allowed even that on occassion. Very rare occassions.

66

[QUOTE=Broomstick]
Well, that’s common to a lot of divination techniques. Chimera mentioned the I Ching, which is certainly not a deck of cards but it is used in similar ways to Tarot, as are runes and various other tools.

And if you ask 10 different practitioners of these arts you’d likely get 10 different answers - which is sort of consistent with the whole business :slight_smile:

The answer I’ve heard most frequently is that because the universe is ever changing, moment to moment, the tool in use is also ever changing.

There is also the common custom of NOT re-asking a question or reconsullting the tool on a frequent basis - probably to avoid just such a thing.

[/QUOTE]

So…you really can’t look at Tarot without believing at least a little in the supernatural, correct?

67

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
So…you really can’t look at Tarot without believing at least a little in the supernatural, correct?
[/QUOTE]

No, not correct. You may believe a little or a lot in the supernatural, or you may not believe in it at all. Do you have to believe in the supernatural to see a bunny in the clouds and remember to buy cat food on the way home? (“bunny” -> animals -> pet store -> cat food -> I’m out of cat food!) There’s no direct link, and no supernatural force telling you through the clouds that you need cat food, but if you let your mind make connections long enough, you’ll make a valuable connection.

68

And don’t forget, there are people for whom Tarot really IS entertainment on the level of a party game.

69

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
By “Big K” I assume you mean Kanicbird. Trust me, you would not “go with me” if you’ve paid any attention to my opinion on the subject.
[/QUOTE]

In so far as what you stated only. I know your opinion of religion and respect your right to hold it.

70

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
No, not correct. You may believe a little or a lot in the supernatural, or you may not believe in it at all. Do you have to believe in the supernatural to see a bunny in the clouds and remember to buy cat food on the way home? (“bunny” -> animals -> pet store -> cat food -> I’m out of cat food!) There’s no direct link, and no supernatural force telling you through the clouds that you need cat food, but if you let your mind make connections long enough, you’ll make a valuable connection.
[/QUOTE]

But…what about the cards? Are you saying they’re useless as far as the read goes? If you lay out a spread and then lay out a completely different spread with the same question, can you make the “connections” the same in both scenarios?

Let me rephrase that…are the drawn cards inconsequential?

71

[QUOTE=Frank]
Omegaman, this post and (less so) the preceding one are inappropriate for the thread and for IMHO. Most posters are treating the OP appropriately; you are not. This is a discussion.

Feel free to open a thread in the Pit if you like.
[/QUOTE]

Roger that.

72

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
But…what about the cards? Are you saying they’re useless as far as the read goes? If you lay out a spread and then lay out a completely different spread with the same question, can you make the “connections” the same in both scenarios?

Let me rephrase that…are the drawn cards inconsequential?
[/QUOTE]

It depends. :wink:

I wouldn’t say they are totally inconsequential, but in a way they are. Some people go strictly by whatever book they got with their cards and that is the interpretation, so for them the drawn cards matter a great deal. Others go more with the let your mind flow, see what images the cards you see bring up in your mind and go from there, so for them the specific drawn cards are not as important.

If you believe that it is true divination, or you have a spirit guide that brings you information, then the drawn cards mean virtually nothing.

73

[QUOTE=Broomstick]
And if you ask 10 different practitioners of these arts you’d likely get 10 different answers - which is sort of consistent with the whole business :slight_smile:

The answer I’ve heard most frequently is that because the universe is ever changing, moment to moment, the tool in use is also ever changing.
[/QUOTE]

The big issue is Symbolism. We like to think that Symbols have a set, definitive meaning. Horseshit. Symbols mean different things to different people in different contexts. Look at any Tarot book. You’ll often find an entire page of different potential meanings for a given card. Those are potential meanings, things the card has meant to other people.

But in the end, you’re going to have to figure out what it means for yourself.

Metaphor is the language of dreams, of the deeper mind. Symbols are a way of bringing that language into the conscious mind. Often we have no clue what those symbols mean, just like we have no idea what our dreams mean until we begin to study them and learn to understand the metaphors and symbols.

This is the attitude of the Supernatural Believer. The one who thinks that some being, God or Spirit is answering and will be offended by such behavior. Carol Anthony goes to great lengths in her book on the I Ching to attempt to convince her readers that “The Sage” (who answers) will not tolerate all sorts of impertinent behavior.

Again, Bullshit. YOU ARE THE SAGE. Ask. Ask again. Ask for details, ask for clarifications. Ask different options, different ideas, different paths. Explore as much as you can, because you’re ultimately exploring your own mind.

I’m very particular about allowing people to handle my ritual tools too, but then again, I’m very particular about allowing people to handle my DVD collection as well. It’s a respect for property issue, regardless of the real value of the object.