This has been the subject of much debate on the SDMB.
Since driver’s licenses must be given to anyone who meets the criteria, instead of being subject to the whim of whoever happens to be working the DMV counter that day, IMO it’s inappropriate to call it a privilege. Unless, of course, you’re also going to call voting a privilege - you’re only allowed to vote if you meet certain criteria, you must register beforehand, and you can be stripped of your voting ability if you break the law, but we still call that a right.
When there is a pressing reason to use force. Which there was not. Sorry, but “Because a cop told you to” is in and of itself not a good reason to badly hurt someone. Why not just wait and let her cool down?
There was no reason to use force at the time it was used. It was less than a minute after the first demand to get out of the car. The police officer simply did not handle this situation with any sort of skill or wise judgment.
I didn’t see that. I saw them opening the car door and tasing her. I didn’t see her swing. If she didn, that’s different. Still not sure wether it warrents a tasing as opposed to a nightstick.
We all have rights. Including the right to drive our cars on a public road.
We can either gain our rights through force, as in im bigger than you or wealthier than you do as i say or i will smash in your face/bankrupt you. ie: a anarchistic state represented by yBeayf.
Or we gain those rights by belonging to a socialistic community. Since the community gives us those rights, the community (the enforcer of those rights) has the right to dictate conditions to the given rights. eg: dont drink and drive, dont use your vehicle to deliberately run over pedestrians etc.
What pro:anarchistic people like yBeayf dont understand is enforcement of rights in a social community works both ways meaning a thug cant prevent you from driving your car because he doesnt like the dice in your mirror.
Since yBeayf doesnt seem concerned about that sort of event he is obviously a black belt millionaire who doesnt require a community to enforce his rights.
In regards to that video, that stupid woman put her own life in danger through irresponible behaviour. She wasnt as tough as she pretended to be, congrats to the cop for keeping his cool. 10/10.
Im wondering if Rickjay has ever tried to enforce community safety upon someone who doesnt want to cooporate.
Have you gotten your opinion on how to behave in such circumstances from experience Rick?
Nonsense. People have rights, irrespective of whether the “community” respects them or not. The only legitimate purpose of a government is to protect those rights, and if it fails to do so, it should be changed or eliminated.
I think it’s possible that they might have talked her out of the car with a little more time. Hard to tell with that attitude of hers. I don’t believe they were leagally bound to give her any. Do you suppose she knew that her liecense was suspended and yet she still gave them nothing but attitude from the get go. Someone mentioned she swung at them which I sure didn’t see. If they tried to pull her out of the car and she resisted even by pulling away I don’t think police are required to take a punch before they defend themselves.
In summary, They might have been a little more patient but in general. She brought it on herself.
Probably, but how open-ended should this encounter have been? Do you have suggested guidelines as to how long an officer in the act of arresting someone can allow them to sit in his/her car?
Ah yes, argument from authority. I figured more logical errors were on the way. I’m frankly disinterested in discussing my personal work experience with you, just as I have no plans to challenge your resume; if you have a problem with me personally, take it to the Pit.
I still haven’t been provided with a reason why this particular woman had to be attacked with a taser gun. “Because she didn’t do what the cops were telling her to do” is a silly reason. Not doing what a cop tells you to do isn’t a crime and does not merit summary electrocution. If she was presenting a danger to them or to someone else, sure. If she attempted to flee the scene, I can see that too.
But maybe I’m just nuts, but shouldn’t a police officer make every attempt to AVOID violence? Would it have been that hard to wait a minute?
He should have pulled her sorry ass out of the vehicle, stuck his knee in the small of her back, and handcuffed her. The taser is a potentially deadly weapon, and deadly force was in no way justified.
RickJay, the police were arresting her, therefore failure to comply with their orders is also breaking the law (resisting arrest).
minty, I think that is just as violent, and if she is fighting back, just as dangerous for her and more dangerous for the officer. She was told multiple times she was going to be tasered (tased?). Obviously, the officer was not bluffing.
I’d just like to know when the Taser became a device for other than the protection of the life or safety of the officer or others in the immediate vicinity. IIRC, the manufacturer has disavowed its use as a tool to force compliance with an order i.e. as a torture device. Since when has law enforcement been granted the power to threaten physical pain as an inducement to obey an officer? We don’t even let American police departments use fire hoses and they are far less lethal than Tasers, pepper spray, or chemical smoke. These methods are more accurately referred to as “less than lethal”; use of the term “non-lethal” is probably a major influence in many of the deaths that have resulted in the use of these levels of force.
When I was a military policeman, I felt that the use of my baton was an admission that I had let the situation escalate beyond my control. Not that mine was a view held universally within the Military Police Corps but I found it to be a useful goal.
There are other ways to enforce compliance from a noncooperative subject. All the officer had to do was back off, wait for assistance, and physically remove the woman from the car. She did not appear to present an immediate risk to anyone. Her supposed attempt to strike an officer was entirely defensive in nature, since she allegedly struck at the officer when he attempted to enter her car and she did not attempt to follow him to do further damage. Overwhelming the woman physically and wrestling her to the ground should have been a level of force the officer considered before pulling out his Taser. It does not appear that he gave that option due consideration to my trained eye.
The M26 was NEVER designed for the protection of life or great bodily harm. That’s what the officer’s pistol is for.
On the Use of Force Spectrum, the Taser has always sat somewhere between Pepper Spray and The Baton. It’s more sever than OC, but less severe than an impact weapon, and that includes hitting and punching. The whole reason the Taser has taken the country by storm is because it allows officers to effect an arrest without “overpowering the suspect physically”! The officer no longer needs to punch, or drag people out of vehicles. They simply Taser. This is what it was designed for. Now smaller, weaker, officers can be just as effective.
Also, an officer can always ask a person to step out of the vehicle. It is irrelevant whether the person is under arrest. If an officer wants you to exit the vehicle during a traffic stop, you have to comply. Not complying, is Resisting an Officer, an arrestable offense.
I believe it was Mimms v. Pennsylvania that settled it.
I’d love to come before a judge and explain to him that I hit the officer in self-defense so I shouldn’t be charged with assault. “Yes, your Honor, it’s true that I was driving on a suspended license and refused to exit the vehicle. It’s also true that I struck the officer when he entered my vehicle and attempted to remove my cell phone.” I don’t believe many states call it self-defense when you strike an officer while he’s performing his duties.
Every available option carries its own risk. The officers are at risk of being scratched, bitten, or hit and possibly catching something like hepatitus. Maybe this woman has a weapon somewhere on or near her person, who knows? The suspect is at risk of multiple abrasions, broken bones, contusions, and other injuries that could result in death. It’s unlikely but then it’s also unlikely that a taser or pepper spray would cause death. You might say officers are trained to take down suspects but their non ninjas and it can still be difficult to take someone down without hurting them.
For those of you who thought the use of the taser was uncalled for I have a question. Would you have honestly felt better if you saw two or more officers manhandle this woman, forcing her to the ground, and cuffing her?
I thought that the officer was combative and had attitude from the second he slowed his vehicle to a stop. I thought he escalated the situation quickly and wantonly, and I hope he is given some counseling. I am very glad I do not live in Florida anymore. Unfortunately, I now live in Nevada, where the police can kill anyone the want, anytime they want, as long as they say during the coroner’s inquest “I thought he might have a gun or some other weapon”.
I thought the driver was scared and somewhat combative. I thought she was operating under a “no big deal traffic stop maybe I can get out of this ticket” attitude. I thought she was handled A LOT differently than a white 22-year old woman would have been. I thought she was given almost ZERO time (less than 30 seconds, I know) to hear, consider and comply with the officer’s ORDER (not a request) to exit the vehicle.
IMO, this officer did a piss poor job of handling what should have been a routine traffic stop and arrest. He should be sent back for training, and he should smoke more pot to mellow out a bit. Maybe he could make it to the Love Parade in Berlin or just some crazy weekend in Ibiza to loosen up and stop wanting to hit people all the time.
Bottom line: legally defensible, morally reprehensible, and totally unnecessary.
This is either a whoosh, or you really have no idea what you’re talking about. Punching and wrestling creates much greater risk to both the suspect and the officer. Not to mention the fact that those injuries last much longer. Bruises and sprains take a while to heal. There are no lasting effects caused by the Taser.*
*Freak accidents not withstanding. Please don’t reply with “Death isn’t long lasting?” Accidental death has been caused by physical violence much more often than a Taser.
