Just wanted to post a couple of links about current news stories in Canada that probably prompted this fella’s question.
A man from close to Calgary that died a few days ago
And another that has been in the Canadian news a lot lately
Cecil’s Column
Almost forgot this one…
Police Taser 82 year old man
In the second case, reliable reports claim that he was shot more than five times. He committed three crimes that caused his death:1. He had a heart condition, 2: he didn’t understand English and 3. the RCMP claim he pointed an extremely dangerous stapler at them.
Now we all know, don’t we, people who have been murdered by stapler, so you can’t say the police over-reacted can you?
The disturbing thing about the case of Robert Dziekanski (#2) is how all of the mistakes were made in the early portions of the investigation which all had to be recanted once the video clip was made public. Which never would have came to light had the video not been shot. How many other cases have police reports that read the taser was deployed once or twice, when actuality it was 5 or 6.
As for the 82 year old in the third case. I would hope that the police officers protecting our society would have the reflexes, manual dexterity, and proper gloves to remove a scalpel from an 82 year old invalids hand. It is worth mention that the taser didn’t do any lasting damage to the old bird.
I think one of the key points to consider that Cecil mentions in his article is that Tasers are meant to be a replacement for billy clubs not guns. If you compare the two; getting chunked over the head with a nightstick can kill a person pretty quick, but an officer doesn’t have to deploy the nightstick to the head. A hard whack to many other places on a persons body can smarten you up very quickly. With the taser no matter where it is deployed on the body 50, 000 volts are going through the heart.
I think it is safe to say that there is a small percentage of the population that a tasing will be the catalyst for “sudden in-custody death syndrome,”. We live in a society that presumes innocence until guilt is proven and in all of Canada and many States there is no capital punishment. Yet some people who are Tased (???) do not get that due process.
Also in both the second and the third case the police where entering secure environments ( International Airport and a hospital) with minimal threat of dangerous weapons. I don’t think that the taser should have even been considered.
I have a tough time saying that a full ban would be in order, but I think they should restricted to the most violent environments. Use it to break up prison fights or something not on the average citizen.
I agree, also it should be stressed that an individual shouldn’t be tased more than once, twice at the max. After which traditional methods should be used.
Looks like cops are starting to use tasers as if they were more dangerous than water guns.
If anyone has been watching the inquiry in BC when they killed that guy in the airport, it’s pretty obvious that cops will lie about circumstances and number of time the victim was tasered so if you can’t trust the cops to tell the truth about taser use, then how can you judge if tasers should be banned?
Taser should be absolutely banned except when used by an expert in their use. Regular street cops judgement can’t be trusted
I don’t think we should focus on tasers killing people. That’ll just encourage the development of a safer push-button torture device. The problem is overuse, of power that comes with less moral responsibility (vs giving out a beating).
Hello everyone, I’m Dugie:)
It’s not that I didn’t know that people have died after being tasered I was just wondering, after watching a video where a guy was zapped a half dozen times(Google “Taser Drunk Guy”), if anyone had died directly from it.
You are probably right, but why should they risk it? Scalpels are extremely sharp one stab to the wrong spot could kill the cop. I work in the fabrication industry, and one rule is to never walk under a suspended load. Sure I might be fast and limber enough to get out from under it if it should fall, but there is a chance I might not…
I’ve had plenty of talks with people about the Vancouver case, so I’ll just sum up my opinions on that matter.
- Do what the man with the gun says unless you’re ok with dying. In this particular case I heard that they were giving him contradicting commands, but if he didn’t know any English he should have got down on the ground. You can clearly see in the video the one cop keeps pointing to the ground.
- they didn’t go there to have a chat with the guy, they where there to arrest him for destruction of property, he acted aggressively and they took him down, it’s their job.
- they didn’t fallow procedure after the takedown, he was left laying on his chest and wasn’t being monitored, this is the cops biggest error, and should be addressed accordingly.
4.Most importantly why was this guy trapped in the airport for 9 hours to begin with!!?? why didn’t the airport have a translator there trying to figure out what was wrong, IMO this whole situation shouldn’t have happened to begin with.
I’m glad that these incidents are getting the attention they are for the simple reason that tasers are dangerous and should not be used carelessly. I’ve heard reports of cops using them to stop people from running away, that is unacceptable. But overall I think that we are better off with them then without them, if used responsibly.
Why should they risk it? Well it’s their job to risk there lives, to put the public’s safety ahead of their own. In all of the cases below these officers weren’t exactly kicking down the door of a crack house.
I hope that I don’t come off as a cop hater. I have a lot of respect for this very honorable, courageous, and noble job, but you are taking a lot of the bravery and courageousness out if you need a taser to disarm and 82 year old. I would dare say that whatever the Odds of a taser killing a human being are they are much greater than a 82 year pneumonia patient has of getting that cop in that “perfect spot” (what is that perfect spot that a 82 year would have the reflexes to shiv a cop in).
As for the Vancouver case you make very valid points that I agree with. Although I think the taser should have never been deployed. 4 trained RCMP officers should be able to restrain a single man, whether or not he was armed with a stapler) without the help of a taser.
Well any respectable crack house has guns so that’s not an issue here. But with regards to the police and their job…
I believe that most signed up to help people, I like to believe that they are out to help us and not just give us grief and speeding tickets. So with that in mind, I don’t want to make their lives any more dangerous than they have to be.
And I disagree, I would never under estimate the skill of any 82 year old, just like children, they are more agile and much smarter than you think!
The Vancouver incident was a SNAFU from start to finish, and it upsets me that the RCMP are the only ones taking blame. But honestly, how do you think it would have “looked” if they came down on him the old fashion way with steel batons? Or do you think he would have come to his scenes and calmed down?
Well everyone is welcome to there opinions about the aged, but I just gotta stress that this wasn’t a tip top Jack Lalane type geriatric. This was a man in the hospital for pneumonia.
As for how would it have “looked” in Vancouver if the police had used batons instead, well the perp would probably look alive. The police’s first physical contact with the man was the taser. Maybe if they would have started with arm bars (there was an officer for each limb) the victim would have realized that he was in an no win situation and stop struggling.
Of course what happened was they tased him and then he, unfortunately, had the rest of his life to think about his actions and “calm down”.
I guess that my main point is that tasers make a poor replacement for a baton. I would liken it to using an automatic rifle for hunting. Too much power.
True enough Kfraser, hopefully in the future they will give more thought when deploying this tool. I’ve also read that some of these tasers are operating outside of their range, I’d like to know if they had already been used on anyone and if so what the outcome was. Home | Edmonton Journal
*I’ve had plenty of talks with people about the Vancouver case, so I’ll just sum up my opinions on that matter.
- Do what the man with the gun says unless you’re ok with dying. In this particular case I heard that they were giving him contradicting commands, but if he didn’t know any English he should have got down on the ground. You can clearly see in the video the one cop keeps pointing to the ground.
- they didn’t go there to have a chat with the guy, they where there to arrest him for destruction of property, he acted aggressively and they took him down, it’s their job.
- they didn’t fallow procedure after the takedown, he was left laying on his chest and wasn’t being monitored, this is the cops biggest error, and should be addressed accordingly.
4.Most importantly why was this guy trapped in the airport for 9 hours to begin with!!?? why didn’t the airport have a translator there trying to figure out what was wrong, IMO this whole situation shouldn’t have happened to begin with.*
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They made minimal effort to talk to him. They went in as heavies. The fact they kept tasering him, claimed that he was threatening him when he clearly on the video wasn’t, claimed he was fighting back when he was thrashing from being multi-tasered.
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The guy didn’t toss a computer terminal until the police started confronting him. Up until then he was a lost disoriented persion (9 hours, no food or water or sleep, plus flight from Poland). They were confronting what they thought was a drunk, and decided to be the heavies. Tehn lied aboutit. And tried to confiscate the video so no one would know.
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No. They monitored him. They said so under oath. He was still breathing and had a pulse moments before the first responders arrived, at which point he was blue from no oxygen for 5 or 10 minutes. Yes, they did nothing about him and they lied. The mounties always get their man.
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Yes, I agree here. In a secure facility, behind immigration lines, a guy can wander for 9 hours while his mother is looking for him on the other side, and nobody asks him what he’s doing there.
The police lied from start to finish about this case, and confiscated the video initially and probably would have destroyed it. The police spokesman gave out lies at first, then neglected to correct them ( 5 zap, not 2; was tthreatening officers, etc.) because “it might confuse the issues”. Just yesterday (May 11, 209), a medical expert from Minneapolis testified at the inquiry that there’s no such thing as Taser death, contradicting several other expert witnesses. The man is paid for this research by Taser, and had a co-author on his medical papers who has no medical training and was a Taser employee until last year.
The problem I see is this. What good is a taser? The people you most want to subdue, the people high and agitated, don’t necessarily stop with one zap. Therefore, this weapon gives police a false sense of security; if a weapon should stop someone dangerous in his tracks (presumably, you use this torture weapon only when there is danger?) then if it doesn’t do that reliably, what good is it?
OTOH, it is a perfect torture weapon. Beats waterboarding. An unrulyteen is Saskatchewan was zapped 5 times in the leg, in her cell, while 3 beefy officers sat on her (mounties, again) because she refused to stop peeling the paint off the wall and talked back. Who can forget “Don’t tase me, bro!”?? Zapped for refusing to hand over a microphone? The biggest issue is multiple taserings. In the Vancouver case, the victim was tasered over and over, 5 times, even though he was on the floor already.
I think, there’s several different personalities that get into policing. One is the “heavy”, the guy who gets to bully because he’s an officer and you’re nobody and there’s nothing you can do about him. Giving these guys a torture weapon and the ability to use it as if it were a flashlight - dangerous! Using a billy-club or even fists invites more questions than the taser.
Time to get rid of them.
If you can’t take a scalpel off an 82 year old man when you are holding a truncheon, perhaps law enforcement isn’t the job you should be in?
Md2000
Regarding the Vancouver incident; I’ve heard plenty of exaggerated stories from both sides, I’ve also watched the video a dozen or so times. Some of what you’ve said contradicts what I saw in the video, the take down didn’t last long and from what I could tell most of the taser shots were given before he was on the ground, you can hear the snap each time it’s fired. Did he need to fire it that many times? I don’t think so, I personally think that the cop didn’t wait long enough to let the fist hit do its job and just kept firing because they guy didn’t drop right away. But it’s clear that this guy was acting aggressively and cops get nervous to, like I said before mistakes were made but IMO they were just doing their job.
I’ve heard from someone else that they were confiscating video from the incident, but as I understand gathering evidence is standard protocol. I’ve also heard people saying they were trying to destroy this evidence, this is an extremely serious accusation and people should really have some evidence to back it up before saying such things. Not correcting the media with up to date information is one thing, destroying evidence is quite another.
The “don’t tase me bro” video is a good example of misuse, IMO it should never be used to punish someone for not complying. They already had him on the ground and he was clearly unarmed. Once again I’m not saying that there aren’t cops who abuse this tool, I’m just saying that you can’t let a few bad apples ruin the whole bushel.
What good is a taser? Well it helps disable a person from a safe distance, hopefully it puts cops more at ease, a scared cop is not someone you want to deal with.
Moral of the story, when a cop tells you to do something, just do it, let the lawyers take care of the rest.
Let me start with the basics: I’m a cop, and have been for over 20 years. I’ve see a lot of defensive/offensive items come and go. I carry a Taser.
I whole-heartedly agree that Tasers are overused. Too many cops believe (and their department policies may require this) that they have to use a Taser instead of going “hands-on”. We have been told how Tasers reduce the risks of injuries to both the suspect and the officers.
I still believe that in many cases, I can take someone into custody without having to use the Taser or get into a big fight. Learning how to deal with people can go a very long way.
However, when someone is really combative, the Taser is a fantastic tool. It incapacitated by locking up the muscles, allowing us to move in and handcuff the person without anyone getting hurt. The Taser is used hundreds, if not thousands, of times a day across the US and there are very, very few problems.
Now, to a few specific points:
There are a couple of things wrong with this. One, when swinging a baton during a fight, the chances of hitting somewhere other than where you intended are extremely high. You aim for the forearm, they drop their arm and lower their head and you nail them right between the eyes (happened to a deputy who is a friend of mine). Even aiming for the forearm and hitting the wrist will cause a great deal more damage than the Taser will in almost any circumstance.
Second, the current doesn’t pass through the heart unless the probes are on opposite sides of the chest. The current passes directly from one probe to the other.
That’s actually what we’re being trained now in my agency. One reason that multiple Taser deployments are used is because the officer tases the guy, then orders him to comply, then use the Taser again when he keeps fighting. The way to handle this is have someone handcuff him while the Taser is still running and the suspect is incapacitated.
Who would count as “an expert in their use”?
It is possible that the cops lied, but that isn’t the only explanation. Tons of data show that under extreme stress, many details aren’t remembered. Cops can almost never tell how many shots they fired. It’s just the way the mind works under stress.
These seem to be very well thought through comments. Every single video I ahve seen that upsets me about the tase ris of the form.
cop: arms behind your back
perp: keeps behaving erratically
zap
cop: arms behind your back…
rinse and repeat.
If the taser is used as you described, to restrain the guy WHILE he is incapacitated it would solve all these problems. And yep - being tased has to be preferable to having a broken arm or dislocated shoulder
That’s actually what we’re being trained now in my agency. One reason that multiple Taser deployments are used is because the officer tases the guy, then orders him to comply, then use the Taser again when he keeps fighting. The way to handle this is have someone handcuff him while the Taser is still running and the suspect is incapacitated.
HUh? I thought this thing gave you a 3-second jolt or so, then you were down for the count for a minute or more. I don’t know what’s worse - repeated tasering, or being given the jolt for a minute or more.
This goes back to my point. If the thing does not work, especially for the most irrational uncontrollable perps, then what the *(&-#$ good is it? It’s a false security blanket. Police get that warm fuzzy feeling by using it when it’s unnecessary. When suddenly confronted with a situation where it doesn’t do exactly what it supposed to do - disable an otherwise uncontrollable belligerent - it puts them in even more danger. Pepper spray / mace used to do the same thing. A weapon that is useless when you most need it leads to (a) danger for the officer and (b) leads to the multiple-overuse that DOES result in unnecessary deaths.
The video was confiscated by the officers at the scene. It took some serious lobbying and legal maneuvering by the media before it saw the light of day, and the mounties have been embarrassed ever since. Yes, at least they were smart enough not to destroy it, which would ahve been obstruction of justice - but how would you prove it? In at least 2 cases recently in Winnipeg, the local Keystones have confiscated camera contents. in one case it was accredited reporters. In the other, the police took the camera, it was given back a few minutes later with no card, and the police denied taking the card. How professional! All they did was draw province-wide attention to the fact that some of the people in the house being raided must be police undercover agents.
If the video had remained locked in the police vaults, for security and privacy reasons like they argued in front of a judge, the original “story” would have stood and there would be no embarrassing inquiry today. After all, based only on their story, the BC prosecutor did not lay charges; although he could not explain why the contradictory evidence of the video was overlooked.
I don’t know, I’m recalling the independent expert testimony of witnesses at the inquiry who said the man made no threats, his actions were convulsions as a result of the first tasering, several officers piled on him and continued to taser him; the “fighting back” was more likely the result of muscle convulsion during repeated tasering. Certainly they did nothing to monitor or help him, and let him die; then on the witness stand, deny deny deny! The airport brass beside them decided they weren’t going to call airport emergency crew - just to make a point, since the crew’s boss had refused to send the crew shovelling snow in case there was an emergency; so the poor guy was electrocuted, then suffocated without CPR waiting for a medical team from the city.
I agree, most police are good and helpful. However, there is the small element that are bullies or heavies, who realize that the badge gives them extraordinary power and immunity, especially in Canada. Fortunately, the RCMP still have the luxury of picking and choosing who they hire; I know one person who was rejected on psychological grounds (thank God!). However, he’s gone on to be an MP in the reserves. Afghans beware!
kfraser34 said:
You seem to be implying he died. The 82 year old man, Frank Lasser, survived.
From the article:
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I have a question: has anyone here had a Taser used on them? These cops that are so ready to deploy the taser, have they been on the receiving end to know what it feels like? Seems to me that should be a requirement.