SteveG1:
I agree - this is a outlier mistake where bad stuff happens, akin to death from an innoculation due to unknown allergies. Shit happens.
The police can not operate assuming that everyone is deaf and has the mental state of a 10 year old who thinks that the devil is trying to get him.
I would welcome a proposed alternate action path for the police to follow, but I have not seen one yet.
Why in the world does a deaf person with the mental capacity of a ten year old not have a guardian when he is out in public? Would anyone here let their deaf ten year old child wander about unescorted?
I also agree that mostly, this is a one-in-a-million situation.
Which is also a one-in-a-million situation. When your mission is to “serve & protect”, why is the protection of the officer given more regard than the protection of the citizen?
IMO, it is equally likely, or unlikely, that the person was either a deaf mentally disabled man or a heavily armed murderous junkie. I would prefer that police act in deference to the public they serve until they know otherwise, not assume the worst and act on that assumption.
Police have underaken a risky career, one that society needs done if it is to function properly. But IMO, that comes with a responsibility to protect citizens, even if means harm comes to the officer. That’s what the job is (or should be) about: serving and protecting citizens. Not serving and protecting police officers.
Or just a drunk or homeless guy taking a bath in the bathroom. LOTS of reasons someone might be locking themselves in the bathroom.
So again - what do YOU think the police should have done given the sequence of events reported?
I am for presumption of innocence followed by politeness and manners.
You are a cop.
You have taken a call from a store that someone has been locked in their bathroom for an hour. The store asks you to remove this person.
You come to the store, and the bathroom door is locked. You knock. No answer.
You pound on the door. No answer.
You announce that you are coming in. You force the door, and they force the door shut.
What do you do now?
“Sir? Ma’am? I’m a police officer. Do you need assistance? Is there a problem? I’m here to help.”
Keep trying to establish communication. Try until you do. Then, after facts are ascertained, decide on an appropriate course of action. That’s what any reasonable person, not just a police officer, should have done. It’s what I would have done.
NOT start shooting pepper spray under the door, through the cracks, then get a tire iron and break the door down, taser the person inside 3 times, drag them bodily from the toilet and then handcuff and laugh at the person while you hold them prisoner under the color of law without reading them their rights or even making a valid arrest.
Specifically, how would you establish communication with a deaf person who refuses to open the door?
The person is not answering.
When you try to force the door, they push back.
Now what do you do?
He can’t. But then someone needs to be responsible for him when he goes out into public.
One might counter by asking how the police are supposed to know someone has barricaded himself in the toidie is deaf and mentally retarded - thru a locked door.
No, it’s the same thing.
He goes into the toilet and stays there (for twenty minutes according to the mentally retarded deaf guy you believe, more than an hour according to the store employees. I notice that this contradiction does not cause you to doubt the word of a mentally retarded person). The police are called to get him out. They pound on the door and yell. He (the deaf guy) doesn’t respond. The police try to force the door open; deaf guy tries to force it closed. The police see movement, or a moving umbrella, or something, that leads them to understand that there is someone inside who is refusing to come out. So they pepper spray, either thru a crack at the side of the door, or thru a crack under the door. Then deaf guy resists arrest, and is Tasered and handcuffed. Then they hold him while they try to figure out why he doesn’t seem to understand anything.
Because he is mentally retarded, and deaf. And the police are supposed to know this. From someone who refuses to answer questions. Thru a locked door. With what - X-ray vision?
Face it - some people see the word “Taser” in the thread title and make up their minds on the spot that the police were being fascist.
Regards,
Shodan
I push my badge under the door. I keep talking.
Dude, at no point will I ever become so frustrated that I pepper spray an unknown individual who is no threat to me or anyone else. Not going to happen.
Would I force the door open? Perhaps eventually. But I wouldn’t immediately taser the person inside, nor would I be fearful of, or even wary of, a parasol.
Note that nowhere in the stories does it say Mr. Love had the bumbershoot in his hands. It merely says the officers saw an umbrella. We have no indication, not even from the police, that Mr. Love was brandishing the umbrella, nor even that it was his. It could belong to an employee who left it in the restroom. It may have been on the floor, or propped against the wall. My take on it, since it wasn’t mentioned by police in accounts to the press, is that Mr. Love did not, in fact, use the brolly to attempt to strike anyone.
As citizens, we should ask that our police officers conduct themselves in such a way that they err on the side of caution, even if that means they get hurt themselves. That is the nature of the job they chose. They are here to protect us, not to protect themselves. And when you don’t know what’s going on, resorting to violence and deliberately escalating a peacful, if awkward and difficult circumstance, is NOT what a community should be paying it’s police officers to do.
I mean, would you support a police directive that said “In the interest of protecting ourselves, we will now shoot first, and sort it all out later”?
Sliding the cop business card under the door is a good suggestion (the badge probably won’t fit, but a card would). That might have helped in this situation, if the boy was not already expecting the devil to come in.
Now what do you do if they STILL won’t come out? You keep on stating what you would NOT do, but the only new idea you have proposed is a non-verbal means of identification to someone locked in a room.
Exactly. That should be the end of the discussion for any reasonable person, but some people are just obsessively, fanatically authoritarian when it comes to police. The goal of a police force shouldn’t be lowest risk to the force, it should be lowest risk to the community that force serves.
Do you honestly believe this? You honestly believe that handicapped people should have legal escorts or something? Blind people should have a guardian with them at all times? Deaf people should have someone with them at all times to alert them to things they can’t hear? Seriously? You really think this? Should mutes have a person with them to speak for them? Are you fucking kidding?
He is an adult human being, not a rabid dog.
Thru repeated attempts at communication. Knock knock knock is not 3 attempts at communication.
Clearly, it is not the same thing. Your argument that it is the same is baseless and ridiculous. But please, go ahead try and show me that “not obeying” and “disobeying” are always identical. Go ahead. I’ll wait.
I have no evidence, other than the police saying that the store employee said it was an hour, that a store employee actually said that. And I’ve already shown that the police are saying things that are, at the least, contradictory. Mr. Love, thus far, has not shown the same tendency.
How in world is pepper spray supposed to get an unresponsive person to unlock a door? Or talk? How? If you pepper spray me thru a crack in a locked door, why would I let you in? So you can assault me more?
Face it - the police aren’t employed to simply bully people within the community. they are employed to help, to protect, and to serve their community. ALL of the community.
These officers failed in their obligation to the public at large and failed in their responsibilities as described by the law. From the information given, IMO, they lack the judgement, the restraint, and the social skills necessary to be entrusted with the badge (and the gun, the taser, the pepper spray, the car, etc.).
You’re acting like pepper spraying and electrocuting a deaf retarded kid is the best way to get him out of a bathroom. If you can’t think of better ways, that speaks volumes about YOU (and these officers), not the kid or the situation.
What about a note saying “What’s wrong? Can we help you?” and a pen for his response?
Now you’re going to ask WHAT IF HE DOESN’T REPLY?!!!
Well then we NAIL HIS ASS!
Wait, no.
The furthest acceptable would be forcing the door open after exhausting every other calm and reasonable option. No pepper spray. No electrocution. The officers were not in danger and neither was anyone else.
The article puts his mental age at 10, and that he thought the devil was coming to get him. That is a bit different from most of the adults out there.
They tried to force the door. The door was forced back.
Now what do you do.
If you are arguing that they should have forced harder to get past him, then state it.
I await your next dodge of the question.
Wait-- what was my first dodge of what question? I mean, you dodged most of my points right here but where the hell did I dodge anything? I just joined this discussion.
Their forcing of the door is unrelated to my suggested forcing of the door because they didn’t exhaust [del]all[/del] any calm and reasonable options first.
Wait. Keep trying.
You quoted this, but it seems to have escaped specific notice:
Until you know what the situation is, why does action have to be taken RIGHT NOW?
Is the store about to explode from a terrorist bomb? Is it the only working restroom in a 20 mile radius? Is the donut shop dangerously overstocked?
Patience is a skill we should all cultivate. Life is not a drive-thru.
Perhaps if the officers involved in this incident had had more patience (and better training), both Mr. Morales and Lt. Pigott would be alive today.
Some adults believe Sarah Palin makes sense and should be in charge of stuff. That is a bit different from most of the adults out there, but I wouldn’t condone tasing them either, in a similar situation.