Teachers are overpaid.

Great Debates
81

Yes, you are using the ‘slippery slope argument’ and it really doesn’t apply here because you’ve misunderstood a key aspect of my proposal.

If you’ll read my recent thread on this forum, you’ll see, first of all, that I don’t consider teaching a profession. It is, at best a quasi-profession moving toward acceptance as a ‘true’ profession, and struggling with a number of ethical and practical issues as it tries to attain that status.

The shortcut to building teaching as a profession with high standards and high pay would be to move towards the voucher system immediately. Politically, that’s not likely to happen, and even if it did, I would have HUGE problems with it because the sheer inequity that would immediately result in monies and personnel heading to the suburbs, leaving urban school districts and rural communities still unable to compete for top teachers.

For the record, I’m not ‘essentially’ advocating subsidized anything --especially government subsidies. What I’m proposing is a well-marketed private industry initiative that eases the financial burdens on teachers and attracts new candidates to teaching by supplementing meager pay with a bevvy of goodies, all tied to teacher/school performance.

There’s not a school district in this country that doesn’t have active partnerships with at least one local business, and there’s not a thriving business anywhere that doesn’t support good local schools. If you want good teachers to stay on and to come in from elsewhere, I’m suggesting businesses make the local community housing and living expenses as low attractive as possible.

It is a well-established fact that low taxes and a well educated populance bring industries to cities. I’m suggesting that industries that provide low-cost incentives for housing and other living expenses and perks would attract teachers to come and stay.

You ask, reasonably, what would stop other professions from ‘demanding’ the same thing. Well, nothing. We live in that kind of country. But I question whether those other occuaptions would need to ask or be as effective in garnering support for its members as support for teachers – private industry’s willingness to provide discounts or hosuing programs for people in the medical field isn’t quite as high. And the problems with social work isn’t pay, from what I hear, but the fact that they have incredibly large lists of clientele who need help and the average social worker can’t meet them all.

Thanks for allowing me to clarify my position. I don’t claim my proposal isn’t problem-free or the perfect solution, but I do believe its worth exploring and expanding.

82

Another slight tangent.

Everyone has been concentrating on pay. The main reasons I left teaching were pay-based but there were strong secondary reasons.

  • When I entered teaching, I was single/unattached since I my previous SO and I broke up a couple of months before. It came as a surprise that people objected to me dating! People would actually say to me that I shouldn’t date because of my contact with the children. Excuse me?!? I don’t remember taking any vows here! The superintendant was cool about it and did very well defusing it but what if he wasn’t there? He told me that He gets complaints about ONCE A WEEK from the public about teachers dating (and I’m not talking about students but other adults). When I entered community college teaching IT DIDN’T GO AWAY! Unbelievable.

  • A female co-teacher had major complaints about her one time. You see, she actually kissed a guy in public! How dare she!

  • Whenever a teacher would leave the school during the day to run an errand (during lunch or free period), the school would get at least one call and usually more than one informing the school that a teacher was downtown. The assumption being that teachers cannot leave the school. This is ludicrous and the superintendent would inform them that it was ok. He would talk about how they wouldn’t think it is right and tell him so. I saw a mother who called on me once come into the school and I immediately called her boss complaining she wasn’t at work. She did not get the point and actually told me she was an adult! (meaning I wasn’t I guess). This brings up the next biggee…

  • Teachers are not adults! You cannot run errands without getting complaints since students were supposed to be in school therefore teachers were. You cannot have an opinion. After a few parties, my sup received calls from people that complained about me because my opinions differed from theirs (off school grounds on a weekend). GEEZ.

  • When I wanted to get married, I was informed by some community members that I shouldn’t be allowed to marry since their kids are my kids and it might affect my teaching. I was being selfish and putting my happiness above the children. HOW SELFISH OF ME! Wouldn’t me being happy have a positive affect on my teaching? I honestly had one man tell me that I shouldn’t get married because teachers cannot provide for a family. OH! next!

  • A couple both taught at the school and had a child. Because of their income, they qualified for FREE (not reduced) school lunch. This caused quite a stir in the community because the press found out (he he) and did a story. They were pressured to withdraw (since it made the community/school look bad. They insisted and their son started to get free lunch. After a day or two, no more, I talked to the mother and she informed me that they had to withdraw otherwise the would be FIRED! The threat went on to say that since they couldn’t fire them for what was legally entitled to them (AS POVERTY LEVEL PARENTS) then they would be fired for reasons that would make them unemployable.

  • (Long story made short) Was asked to tutor mechanics son on Saturdays. Did tutoring for 4 sessions. Had car problems. Asked mechanic to fix. Mechanic sent me bill including labor (at $35 per hour). Asked why he was charging me labor. He looks at me like I’m stupid. Instead of paying, sent him bill for 4 hours tutoring (at $35 per hour). He goes ballistic and complains to sup. Insists I be fired for not doing my job (I guess that includes free weekend tutoring), Sup defends me. Man gets pissed. Takes me to small claims court. Judge goes completely on his side stating that it was my job. (let me point out that said tutee wasn’t even my student!). I had to pay. I guess it was my fault for not charging him upfront. After that, whenever approached for weekend tutoring, I stated my hourly rate – which provoked even more complaints to sup.

Enough for now, you get the idea.

After rereading, I make my sup out like he was a great guy. He wasn’t. However, he did believe that teachers were adults with adult rights and stuck up for that. So, in a way, he was a saint!

I can date now , get married! I can have kids now! I get bonuses! Pay RAISES! Cost of living adjustments!! I can go on errands. I don’t have to be pressured to give away my services! I am not forced to take on tasks that pay the equivalent of $0.25 an hour (coaching). This is great!

Blink

83

Blinking Duck:

Wow! I mean that. Wow! I’ve taught at four different districts, my brother is a former principal at one district and currently assistant superintentant at another. I don’t think your experience is typical. I can sympathize with many of your complaints, and they seem to support the notion that teachers are not paid enough for what they are required to do and put up with.

On the tutoring thing. If you don’t have an agreement up front for the parents of the child to pay, you don’t have a contract, and so the judge was legally correct in his/her ruling. When I tutor privately, I always have my clients sign a form up front detailing hours and pay rate ($30 per hour plus expenses) and have them sign a log book for each tutoring session. Tutoring is a business, and you have to be careful about the business end of it if you choose to be a tutor. But I get your point. You deserved compensation for the parents’ utilizing your expertise. You got screwed, but it was by the mechanic, not the judge.

Askia: If you want to define teaching as not being a profession, fine. Let’s not get hung up on a word. My argument througuout this thread has been that to solve the teaching shortage it is neccesary to increase salaries to attract to and keep more and more highly qualified people in teaching. To improve the overall quality of education, you need to attract better people, and the best way to do this is to pay more. And to limit incompetence, you need to eliminate “emergency” credentialing*, and increase standards needed to qualify to become a teacher. But to increase standards, you must increase compensation.

*We have a teacher at my school who used an emergency credential as a back door to get into teaching. She was denied admission to the teaching program at her college due to her inability to pass the physics general ed requirement. She instead got a history B.A., and with a bachelor’s degree was then qualified for an emergency credential. So here she is, unable to qualify for the teaching program, yet allowed to teach with a four week summer training program and no student teaching. This is the reason why we desperately need to increase compensation. Even this C student is better than the alternative, which would be to hire no one and have 36 students per class rather than 30.

84

I agree throroughly, deeply, significantly, wholly and absolutely.

BUT.

In poor urban and small rural school districts where there’s not a large tax base of homeowners to draw money from to fund schools, you’re just not going to get tax revenue for significant increases in teacher salaries. Competitive wages, maybe – especially if you can get monies from the state department. But what’s a good alternative to raising txes for higher salaries? Hmmmm…

(smack forehead) Why – lowering teachers’ living costs. Of course!

Local school districts should talk to businesses. ALL OF `EM. From the local banker on down to the local baker. Have them commit to showing support for local schools by donating their goods, services and products to school teachers at free or reduced cost. These should be as bewildering and varied as local businesses allow.

Most important would be housing programs that offer reduced mortgages and home financing to qualified teachers, or apartment relocation for beginning teachers. Car financing. Specialized teacher banking services. Half-off newspaper subscriptions. Free (or reduced) movie passes. At least one local mechanic should offer discounted auto service, too. Just for teachers.

Bigger cities could offer free (or sharply reduced) transit passes to commuting teachers. Discount laundry service. Discount cable service. Discount internet service provider subscriptions. Gasoline cards. Museum passes. Theater ticket raffles. Theme park passes. Special double coupons at grocery chains. Free phone cards. Restaurant coupon books (especially for those moving in from out-of-state.) Bookstore discounts of at least 25% off, year-round. Clothing store discounts of at least 10% off, year round. Shoe store discounts of at least 10% off, year round. Pizza coupons. Sports bar coupons.

(Slight tangent: Some national video chain would engender a LOT of goodwill if they could somehow start a special ‘for classroom use only’ video rental service, since due to copyright law, no schoolteacher is supposed to show videoes rented from chains where they’re meant strictly for home use.)

These incentives would change year to year as businesses come in, drop out, change incentives, increase / decrease partnerships. But all teachers should expect to look forward to 50-70 “perks” each school year.

Much of what I’ve typed above happens spontaneously and pell mell anyway, but I’ve yet to see it done in a widespread, organized fashion. And even when it happens, it’s NOT promoted as a benefit of teaching – not in the school districts I’ve been to, anyway.

School districts should package the perks as coupons, debit cards and business cards and present these additional “goody” incentives on top of the usual salary schedules and benefits packages to all prospective teachers. “We want good teachers, and this is what you get!” should be the message – and many people would think differently about education if they knew about free stuff businesses and cvic organizations are willing to give them. Everybody loves a bargain.

85

I agree that this would be a great idea, which is why I say we need to increase COMPENSATION to attract more and better teachers. The perks you talk about would be a form of compensation.

86

Again, agreed. I was merely suggesting an alternative means of compensation beyond the funding we normally have to referendum-and-bond out of the taxpayers’ pockets. Why not let business raise the stakes for a change?

87

David what do you do for a living.

Call it (davidjob)

I think that people that do (davidjob) should be paid very little because otherwise people would do (davidjob) for the money and not because they have the welfare at people at heart.

I think doctors should be paid $28,000 per year MAX. We don’t want people to become doctors for the money! We want doctors to be in it for helping people and curing disease.

See how dumb you sound David?

You make it sound like if someone goes into something for the money then they will be bad at it.

Nothing is further from the truth. People want to love what they do, help people and be REWARDED AND VALUED for what they do. Pay is part of the reward and value part. I left teaching because of the pay and I was elected teacher of the year in my state so I must have been somewhat good. I left because the pay sucked and I wanted to be able to provide for a family.

Also David, I assume you will be coming a teacher and taking a very low salary position. No? Ok, then I assume you will go to college, work and pay for a four year degree and then take an important but low paying job as a social worker making $18,000 a year. NO??? Then why the heck are you making judgements on these professions!!! If you feel a field should be low paying so that people go into it not for the money, APPLY IT TO WHAT YOU ARE IN/CHOOSE TO BE IN FIRST!
(See people, people like David are why I left teaching…)
Blink