Teachers have to pay to take vacation day?

[Tim_T-Bonham.net]

@suranyi

My wife is a teacher in California, and although she doesn’t have to pay to take a vacation day, she does have to arrange for a sub on her own.

@Chronos

Around here, there’s a computer system that handles it. If a teacher needs to take a day off, then they just log in and click a few buttons. The subs can also log in at any time, and see a list of jobs that are available, and click one to accept it. Teachers can create a list of preferred subs, and if a teacher has any preferred subs, those subs will see the listings 10% earlier than anyone else (thus, for instance, if the day off is put in 10 hours before the time the job starts, the non-preferred subs would have to wait an hour before they could take the job, if none of the preferred subs beat them to it).

My neighbor is a teacher, and for several years was a substitute teacher for the St. Paul schools. She was kept busy enough that she made a reasonable income at it. One year, she worked at the same school for all but 4-1/2 weeks of the 9-month school year, substituting in various classes. She might as well have been a full-time teacher there.

That used to be arranged by the teacher & Principal of the school. The District maintained a list of substitutes, with their certificate qualifications & experience, and they were picked from that list. But in reality, most of her work came from teachers/principals she had sub’ed for before – they contacted her directly, often far in advance for things like pregnancy, surgery, etc.

Then the District installed an online computerized system for substitute teachers. (No doubt, they paid some educational consultant company big bucks for this.) Potential subs & schools with openings would ‘bid’ on matches. But a feature(!) of this system was that it was anonymous – both the sub teacher’s name & the school with the opening were NOT shown. Nobody liked this, neither subs nor teachers/principals. Maybe some District Administrator did.

But I learned decades ago as a system designer on punched card/COBOL systems; if the workers don’t like your system, it will (eventually) fail.

And the users were soon subverting this computerized system.
She would put ‘code words’ in her bid for a job (‘growing up in rural Podunk, MN, I am used to dealing with diverse students…’) which she told to places where she had previously worked. And the schools would sneak hints into their job openings (‘we have an enthusiastic student body – on game days, they all wear their red-and-gold colors’). Stupid when users have to resort to subterfuge to get around system limitations.

[Patx2]

@Chronos

Around here, there’s a computer system that handles it. If a teacher needs to take a day off, then they just log in and click a few buttons. The subs can also log in at any time, and see a list of jobs that are available, and click one to accept it. Teachers can create a list of preferred subs, and if a teacher has any preferred subs, those subs will see the listings 10% earlier than anyone else (thus, for instance, if the day off is put in 10 hours before the time the job starts, the non-preferred subs would have to wait an hour before they could take the job, if none of the preferred subs beat them to it). Of course, if you know about a day off far enough in advance, then you can make arrangements with a specific sub, but it’s never necessary to do so. Most of the districts around here collaborate on a single sub pool: I work in four different districts, and I could work in a dozen more if the travel time weren’t prohibitive.
The difficulty with that is that there tends to be a correlation between when teachers are out, especially within a single school. Sometimes there’s a professional-development workshop that all of the math teachers, say, are attending. And sometimes there’s “something going around” in the school, so a lot of teachers are sick. On the other hand, right after a vacation, there are much fewer subs. So it’s hard to plan for how many full-time subs are appropriate. And I find that I work at the same schools often enough anyway that I still get to know many of the students (at least, the ones who really need to be known). I’m quite happy that I’ve managed to get through this entire year without having to deal with one particular problem student.

I’m a sub, and while I’m surfing the dope, I’m flipping back to my online page checking for jobs, I’ve still got a few days to fill before the end of the year. The system works exactly the way you describe it. It’s also set up so that once I accept a job for a certain day, I won’t see any other assignments for that date in case anyone was wondering. I’m not sure if this is true everywhere, but in my state as a sub, I’m a certified, licensed teacher. I have a masters in education, I’m required to keep up my post credit hours just like classroom teachers. I think sometimes people think anyone is going in filling these jobs, that is not always the case, often, the subs have a hell of a lot of experience with the curriculum and classroom management. No, I don’t write lesson plans, but I’m not paid nearly close enough to do so. That said though, I’ve been doing this job long enough that if given a chance to look over the objectives and materials, I can wing it, if for some reason plans are missing or technology fails, etc. Shit happens.

[Alley_Dweller]

If you let teachers pick their own subs, how do you make sure the school district is adhering to their AA/EO/Diversity hiring requirements? I assume the district is still responsible for violations even if they delegate the task to individual teachers.

[Patx2]

@jjakucyk

My high school of about 1,200 students had at least one full-time substitute teacher on staff. The nice thing about that sort of arrangement is that he got to know a lot of the students, and vice versa. So there weren’t the attendance shenanigans and other disciplinary problems you tend to have with substitutes. He’d do hall or lunch room monitoring duty too, but I don’t know if that was him filling in because he wasn’t needed as a sub that day, or if he was covering the duties of the teacher he was subbing for (several teachers did at least one period of hall monitoring or study hall since they could just sit at a desk at one of the various checkpoints or building entrances and grade papers while I assume earning some extra money).

I actually didn’t apply for a building sub position. It’s a slightly different situation, I sub in elementary schools. Anyway, I do day to day subbing, but every year, about 85-90% of my work is in one building. They had a building sub position open, but the one perk of being a sub is picking the assignments I want, not walking in the morning of, and being told where I’m going to be for the day. The other downside is on occasion if there’s no need for a sub that day, they send you to a different building, of course with 1200 kids that wouldn’t happen at your high school. There’s one building in the district I won’t sub and I’m not paid enough that I could be assigned there and be happy about it. The place stresses too many subs, not to mention classroom teachers out.

[md2000]

I don’t know about teachers, but I assume the union contract covers it. If the union contract does not cover it, I would imagine it would after the concept was introduced, and right after the next contract negotiations.

Everywhere in Canada I’ve worked, (and I assume it’s same in the USA) the labour standards dictate the minimum vacation days or pay they must give you; but the employer rules, backed by labour standards and precedents state that employees can take their vacation when they want, but subject to the requirements of the efficient operation employer’s business… I.e no you have no* right* to take vacation from your store during the last week of sales leading up to Christmas for example. One employer I knew of had a summer 4-week shutdown and required employees to take their vacation then… so they did not have to accommodate a number employees off randomly throughout the year. For teachers, I imagine there are more than enough summer holidays, spring break and Christmas holidays to accommodate any earned vacation, so the employer has no obligation to allow any teacher to take time off during the working week. If they introduce a penalty to do so, I guess that’s their discretion - take it or leave it.

[Chronos]

In order for a teacher to be able to pick a sub, the sub first has to be hired by the district. Presumably they take care of any legal requirements at that time. Of course, there’s no guarantee, once hired, that you’ll get any assignments.

And while I am qualified to be a full-time teacher, all the state of Ohio actually requires for a sub license is a bachelor’s degree (in anything). I’ve heard some horror stories of subs who show up and then do nothing but play on their phones all day, while ignoring the students.

[md2000]

@Chronos

In order for a teacher to be able to pick a sub, the sub first has to be hired by the district. Presumably they take care of any legal requirements at that time. Of course, there’s no guarantee, once hired, that you’ll get any assignments.

And while I am qualified to be a full-time teacher, all the state of Ohio actually requires for a sub license is a bachelor’s degree (in anything). I’ve heard some horror stories of subs who show up and then do nothing but play on their phones all day, while ignoring the students.

I’ve known some provinces in Canada where a sub merely had to have “better than high school” education. One girl I knew way back in the day was one of the prize students in the local high school. After first year university was over, she came back and did substitute teaching for the school board for May and June. All the teachers liked her so she was often requested. Another one I knew was a refugee from Romania with a bachelors’ degree from there. But by this time (around 1990) they demanded a B.Ed. for teaching full time.

When I went to school in 1960’s and early 70’s a one-day substitute meant a period of doing nothing. If they tried to teach, they’d meet all sorts of problems. Students would tell them a wrong chapter to teach, etc. Nowadays, and starting back in the late 1980’s I think, the expectation was that a lesson plan would be available for the sub.

[Flyer]

@Chronos

Yes, $90 a day. Teaching is the proverbial “not doing it for the money” profession, and subs get paid even less than full-timers.

This is one of those things that “everybody knows” that just isn’t true; as evidenced by the very next post:

@eschereal

In an urban district in the late '80s, my mother was at the bottom-right of the salary schedule (MA+60, 20+ years of service) and making more than, as I recall, $60K a year, which was pretty decent at the time.

$60K/year is MORE than decent money even now. The median individual income (as opposed to the average household income, which is much more widely reported) is about $31K.

Real Median Personal Income in the United States

Average wages, median wages, and wage dispersion

I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again: the income distribution on this board is heavily skewed towards the upper end. Probably 80% of Dopers have absolutely no clue how the average American actually lives. $90/day works out to $11.25/hour; and there are literally millions upon millions of people who are working for less than that.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Flyer

$60K/year is MORE than decent money even now. The median individual income (as opposed to the average household income, which is much more widely reported) is about $31K.

Whether teacher pay is appropriate is a whole nother collection of threads, but they’re better suited for Great Debates, not General Questions. The only point I’ll make is that your benchmark–median income–is a curious benchmark to use, since it includes everything from occupations that require a doctorate to occupations that don’t require a middle school education.

Since teaching requires a four-year degree everywhere in the United States, and a graduate degree in some states, the appropriate comaprison is to other occupations that require similar levels of education.

As for the OP’s question, I’ll explain the North Carolina system:

Here, we’ve got Annual Leave, Sick Leave, Personal Leave, Professional Leave, and a few smaller irregular categories (e.g., we had furlough leave a few years back, but not this year).

Teachers get 10 days of annual leave their first year of teaching, and one additional day each year of experience they have. The school year has ten annual leave days built into the calendar–Christmas, Thanksgiving, and the like–and really bad snow days can be annual leave days as well. You can also take annual leave instead of coming in on an optional workday.

I think we get ten days of sick leave as well. Pricipals may require doctor’s notes at their sole discretion, if they think someone is abusing sick leave. These accumulate and can be paid out at retirement, under certain conditions.

We earn three personal days a year and can have up to five personal days “in the bank.” We can take a personal day in lieu of a workday with no questions asked and no payment. If we take a personal day on a day for which a substitute teacher will be necessary, we pay a $50 fee toward the cost of that substitute teacher.

[suranyi]

@Alley_Dweller

If you let teachers pick their own subs, how do you make sure the school district is adhering to their AA/EO/Diversity hiring requirements? I assume the district is still responsible for violations even if they delegate the task to individual teachers.

As said, the teachers, e.g. my wife, can only pick from the subs that have already been hired/approved by the district, so that takes care of all the legal issues.

[DSYoungEsq]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Whether teacher pay is appropriate is a whole nother collection of threads, but they’re better suited for Great Debates, not General Questions. The only point I’ll make is that your benchmark–median income–is a curious benchmark to use, since it includes everything from occupations that require a doctorate to occupations that don’t require a middle school education.

Since teaching requires a four-year degree everywhere in the United States, and a graduate degree in some states, the appropriate comaprison is to other occupations that require similar levels of education.

As for the OP’s question, I’ll explain the North Carolina system:

Here, we’ve got Annual Leave, Sick Leave, Personal Leave, Professional Leave, and a few smaller irregular categories (e.g., we had furlough leave a few years back, but not this year).

Teachers get 10 days of annual leave their first year of teaching, and one additional day each year of experience they have. The school year has ten annual leave days built into the calendar–Christmas, Thanksgiving, and the like–and really bad snow days can be annual leave days as well. You can also take annual leave instead of coming in on an optional workday.

I think we get ten days of sick leave as well. Pricipals may require doctor’s notes at their sole discretion, if they think someone is abusing sick leave. These accumulate and can be paid out at retirement, under certain conditions.

We earn three personal days a year and can have up to five personal days “in the bank.” We can take a personal day in lieu of a workday with no questions asked and no payment. If we take a personal day on a day for which a substitute teacher will be necessary, we pay a $50 fee toward the cost of that substitute teacher.

My only comment on the pay issue would note that the comparison was being made with someone who was at the “bottom right” of the pay schedule. In other words, someone who had taught for close to 30 years and was educated much more than just a B.S.; probably a Ed.D. So looking at the median pay for Americans by comparison was not apples to oranges.

Teacher subs get really minimal pay. Some places are trying to change that. Here’s an article about a bump in pay of subs in Charleston, SC: [url=http://www.counton2.com/news/substitute-teacher-pay-increase-approved-by-charleston-county-school-board_20180312080248262/1031534353

[doreen]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Teachers get 10 days of annual leave their first year of teaching, and one additional day each year of experience they have. The school year has ten annual leave days built into the calendar–Christmas, Thanksgiving, and the like

I am a little confused by “annual leave days built into the calendar”. Do you mean days that are normally referred to as “holidays” - school is closed and you neither have to work nor use one of your 10 annual leave days ? Or do you mean there are no classes on these days, but you still either have to work or use up one of your 10 days?

[DrDeth]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Whether teacher pay is appropriate is a whole nother collection of threads, but they’re better suited for Great Debates, not General Questions. The only point I’ll make is that your benchmark–median income–is a curious benchmark to use, since it includes everything from occupations that require a doctorate to occupations that don’t require a middle school education.

Since teaching requires a four-year degree everywhere in the United States, and a graduate degree in some states, the appropriate comaprison is to other occupations that require similar levels of education.

As for the OP’s question, I’ll explain the North Carolina system:

OK, Teachers earn more than Federal workers that require a BA degree. Teachers used to get paid crap, now they get a decent income. Whether or not that pay is fair compared to what we expect and what they have to put up with is yes- another question. But teacher pay is certainly adequate.

[Thudlow_Boink]

@DrDeth

But teacher pay is certainly adequate.

My understanding is that teacher pay (and benefits, and working conditions) can vary widely from district to district (and state to state), so you can’t globally say whether teacher pay is “certainly adequate” or not. Am I correct about this?

[DrDeth]

@Thudlow_Boink

My understanding is that teacher pay (and benefits, and working conditions) can vary widely from district to district (and state to state), so you can’t globally say whether teacher pay is “certainly adequate” or not. Am I correct about this?

Ok, teacher pay *in California. *

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@DSYoungEsq

My only comment on the pay issue would note that the comparison was being made with someone who was at the “bottom right” of the pay schedule. In other words, someone who had taught for close to 30 years and was educated much more than just a B.S.; probably a Ed.D. So looking at the median pay for Americans by comparison was not apples to oranges.

Definitely a fair point–thanks for raising it!

@doreen

I am a little confused by “annual leave days built into the calendar”. Do you mean days that are normally referred to as “holidays” - school is closed and you neither have to work nor use one of your 10 annual leave days ? Or do you mean there are no classes on these days, but you still either have to work or use up one of your 10 days?

:smack: I’m a little sleepy today and misphrased this bit. No, Christmas isn’t an annual leave day; it’s a holiday, as is the 24th and 26th. But students are on winter break this coming year from December 20-January 2. Here’s how that looks from a teacher time off perspective:

December 20-21: Annual Leave days. Schools are closed, and these days are deducted from your supply of annual leave days.
December 24-26: Holidays. Schools closed, no deductions necessary.
December 27-28: Annual Leave days.
December 31-January 1: Holidays.
January 2: Optional teacher workday. You can show up for work, or take an annual leave day, or a personal leave day. (Annual leave accumulates year to year, and can be cashed out at retirement; personal leave caps at 5 days but can be taken on a day students are around.)

I hope that clarifies things.

@DrDeth

OK, Teachers earn more than Federal workers that require a BA degree. Teachers used to get paid crap, now they get a decent income. Whether or not that pay is fair compared to what we expect and what they have to put up with is yes- another question. But teacher pay is certainly adequate.

You are, of course, engaging in opinions here, and it’s hard to respond to that without similarly opinionifying in General Questions. But I know one teacher–me–who had his kids on Medicaid at one point, and this was after becoming national board-certified.

[suranyi]

@DrDeth

Ok, teacher pay *in California. *

Don’t forget, the median income in the Bay Area is around $115,000. So teachers do well there by national standards, but not by local standards.

[DrDeth]

@suranyi

Don’t forget, the median income in the Bay Area is around $115,000. So teachers do well there by national standards, but not by local standards.

Yes, but they earn up to 80000, so they arent hurting too much. Sure, they cant buy a house without a long commute, but neither can other civil servants.

[DrDeth]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

You are, of course, engaging in opinions here, and it’s hard to respond to that without similarly opinionifying in General Questions. But I know one teacher–me–who had his kids on Medicaid at one point, and this was after becoming national board-certified.

Were you full time? where were you teaching?

[Alley_Dweller]

@suranyi

As said, the teachers, e.g. my wife, can only pick from the subs that have already been hired/approved by the district, so that takes care of all the legal issues.

Let’s say that a school district does a good job of adding minorities to the list of eligible subs. Assume that it is 50% minority and 50% white, which approximates the population of the school district accurately.

But, when a sub is needed, suppose the teachers left to their own devices call white subs 75% of the time and minority subs 25% of the time. Just having minorities on the list of eligible subs is not enough if there is no method to ensure that they are equitably called for service.