You are familiar with the concept of collective bargaining, nu?
And that’s precisely what people have told you. Shit the bed, son! Don’t you bother reading anything that’s been posted? They’ve also pointed out to you why your beliefs are wrong. But you’re just hell-bent against learning anything.
Now, that’s hardly fair at all. What if my wife is a worthless and lazy fucking asshole who just wants to leech your money out of the tax system? Huh? Sparky, you claim that you have a 4 year old (o’course, you also claim that you have known teachers, which is bullshit, so. . .). If you are telling the truth, then I can only hope that you’re gonna send that wee bairn to public school. Because your life will be made a whole helluva lot more interesting.
I’m sorry. . .what in hell are on about here? Because I’m as baffled as can be.
Y’wanna back this up? Or just leave it lying there?
Um, no it isn’t.
How so, precisely? “Immoral”? Really?
Not “people”. “Ignoramuses”. They’re called “ignoramuses”.
This smacks of nothing but being a jerk, by way of baiting and uncalled for accusations.
As does this. What insulting and demeaning language would that be, btw?
Attempting to put others on the defensive is only a cheap way to keep from having to defend your own actions here. Your attempt to redirect really shows who’s in the hole.
But back to the real matter: You made sweeping accusations of a large group of people-- saying they’re not credible, they’re lying, and they’re full of bullshit-- with language that was arrogant and condescending. In addition, you refused to listen to anyone, or be moved in your opinion of said group of people, no matter what anyone else said. You stereotyped, you assumed, you acted like an pompous ass.
Replace ‘teachers’ in this thread with any other large group of people, talk as demeaning as you did here, and you would have the same labels (‘douchebag,’ ‘asshole,’ ‘fuckstick’) tossed your way.
I think most people do respect teachers. Our society just has a real bad way of showing it most of the time.
Yes, as does throwing out the race card, as Miller did.
See above.
I agree, and I’m not really sure why Miller did it.
You can say whether it was arrogant or condescending. I did make sweeping accusations against a large group of people on this particular issue. I do not say that everyone or every school in the grouping is subject to the accusation. I have listened to people, I have simply not been swayed by “Fuck you you arrogant asshole.” That probably should not surprise you. Some of the actual evidence provided (which was minimal, it appears that ad hominem attacks are easier to make) has been interesting, some of it pursuasive. On the whole, I found much of it from biased sources, and much of it does not say what the deliverer thought it did.
Any other large group like “conservatives” or “republicans”? What about “corporate CEOs”? “U.S. Department of Education”?
I made a generalization about a group. It does not apply to every member of the group, but I’ll stand by it as a generalization. You are deluding yourself if you believe that the type of behavior you are describing would be deemed acceptable in similar contexts that didn’t hit your “moral indignation” wheelhouse. I would question who is pompous; to me it would be someone who attempts to shout down those who disagree with the assertion that teachers are overworked and underpaid. Of course, your not so clever game is to say that if I disagree that this is the case on average, I’m saying “Teachers are lying.” Well, what a surpise, if I disagree with a group, they are lying. It’s a brilliant rhetorical device. Let me try it:
“You fucking asshole? Why would you not expect me to hate you - plenty of teachers are overpaid and underworked, and yet you say differently. You’re accusing me of lying.”
I respect teachers. I just don’t think on average that they are underpaid.
Oh my goddess, you are truly stupid.
He didn’t play a race card, he showed you how your sloppy and hamfisted attempts at an unsubstantiated generalization would look with another group substituted for teachers.
Were you not a total idiot with the reading comprehension of a third grader, you really would be sure. But you’re not sure, because you’re stupid.
No, just the people posting in this thread.
Oh, and, by the way, your bullshit ‘scientific study’ still wouldn’t be grounds for you to make any sort of sweeping statement. The fact that you still don’t get this only surves to show how much of a moron you are.
I’ve already explained this to you once. Try to follow along Spunky.
Your entire premise is based on a bullshit ‘scientific study’ with a sample size of 30 individuals. As such, your generalization was bullshit, and your attitude was simply more slime.
So, I disproved your methodology, then pointed out you were an asshole.
Reading comp, gotta love it.
Nobody needed to provide any evidence to refute your ‘scientific study’, because your ‘scientific study’ was pure grade A bullshit. We then went on to show you why you were wrong, even though you’re just a loud mouthed asshole. While showing you why you were wrong, we pointed out that you were both wrong, and a loud mouthed asshole.
Reading comp Spunky, try to keep these two concepts in your head.
You are factually incorrect.
You are a stupid schmuck.
Ah, it surprises me that you’d be slimy, honestly.
When you can’t discuss data, call the site biased and run. That’s the ticket!
And as others pointed out, the cites said exactly what they were intended to. Your abhorent reading comp isn’t the cites’ fault.
You made a generalization based on a bullshit ‘scientific study’ and have given no other data. You are wrong, and an idiot.
Because you’re an idiot.
It’s not a moral issue, it’s a factual one. Your ‘research’ was sloppy and doesn’t prove jack shit. Your rhetoric was slimy and offensive. And you’re an idiot.
Savvy?
Had you a) provided cites b) conducted an actual and valid scientific study c) not come in acting like a total asshole
Well then, maybe people would’ve reacted better.
Good gods! Do you have any balls??? First you accuse people of lying, then you lie about accusing people of lying. Jeeeeeeeez, stop being such a fucking whining little bitch. Others have shown you the many, many times in this thread you’ve implied or flat out stated that those who disagree with you are liars. Jeez, you’re pathatic.
Hey, moron, what data do you have to support this?
Thought so.
Now shut your fucking mouth unless you really want to dig that hole deeper.
Why would you ask for pardon for engaging in rational discourse instead of spewing invective.
I have explained it to Miller. It’s not a matter of not explaining, it’s a matter of not getting the answer.
It’s very simple - Miller was disingenuous. If you read the quote, Miller said that by accusing most of a group of whining (or lying) about how hard they work, I was saying to every teacher that they are a liar. That is simply not the case. If I say 51% of a group (call it group X) is purple, that does not mean that if I pick one of the group randomly, they will be purple. It is demonstrably false. Likewise, saying most of a group is whining (or lying) cannot be converted to saying that everyone in that group is lying. It’s simply wrong.
Of course Miller couldn’t handle that. So he changed what he wrote. Suddenly he throws out the race card, and says, “Hey, if you said most blacks are X, wouldn’t you have a right to be pissed off if you were black?”
Well, first, he has injected race to try to play a game that makes a statement about teachers akin to a statement about skin color. To show the falacy, I would ask you this: if someone says, “Most pro atheletes are overpaid,” would you then respond with, “Hey, what are you saying, do you think you would have a right to say ‘Most blacks are overpaid?’” It’s apples and oranges, and its a disingenuous technique that is insulting to blacks in this case. It’s an artificial way to attempt to bar any questioning of the teacher’s viewpoint - “Oh hey, teachers are just like blacks; saying that teachers are overpaid is the same about making generalizations about blacks, which is the same as making generalizations that corporate CEOs are overpaid.” It’s ridiculous.
Furthermore, he is applying the race card, as he is hoping to equate saying bad things about blacks (presumably because of the color of their skin) with saying bad things about teachers. I’m perfectly willing to admit that you might be quite pissed off if you were a teacher and you read my statement. But you cannot say that the statement says that you as an individual teacher are a liar.
What are those other jobs? Have you applied for and obtained them but turned them down? I’m sincerely not trying to insult you, you’ve tried to be reasonable. But I believe that a lot of people think that there is a plethora of really high paying jobs out there just waiting for an average bachelors or masters degree. There are not. In fact a quick look at the following site suggests that the income gain from the degrees is relatively minimal (in looking at it, bear in mind that the increase is over a lifetime:
Of course not. I appreciate what teachers do. I respect good teachers who actually prepare and put in the effort to do the job well I have a right to say that on average, the average teacher is not underpaid.
I don’t think a lot of teacher’s are teachers because they can’t hold down a real job. I think that a lot of teachers have a cushy job, and as any normal person would do, they like the cushy job. Why does having a cushy job mean that you can’t hold any other job? I’m sure I could do plenty of different types of work; my choice to do something that pays well (that probably overpays me) does not mean I can’t find some other work.
Nothing hijacked at all; I appreciate your thoughts and thank you for not ranting.
No thanks, unlike you, I don’t have the fascist need to tell people they shouldn’t speak when I happen to disagree with them. I think I’ll keep speaking; try to keep the enraged thoughts of stomping on me with jackboots because I’m saying something you don’t like out of your mind.
Look at my posting history idiot. And while you’re at it gain some fucking reading comprehension, you’re a fucking tool.
Not only am I not a fascist in any way shape or form, but I have civil disucssions with those who disagree with me all the time. The difference, here, is that you’re a loud mouthed ignorant asshole who from the first post you made in this thread has insulted people. I responded to you in kind. Then you started whining like a little bitch.
So fuck you, you fucking lying idiot wimp.
Dig the hole deeper asshole. Dig the hole deeper.
No, if you were saying something I didn’t like, and had one single fact to back it up, I would concede that I was wrong, and I’d learn, evolve, grow, change.
But, you are factually bankrupt, challenged to a large degree by standard English text, and from the word go, absolutely obnoxious.
So, if I felt like stomping on you it would be because you’re an obnoxious idiot. Not because you disagree.
Are you freaking KIDDING US? HappyLender posted line after line from your OWN posts where you continually call teachers both here, and 'out there" liars and you have the unmitigated gall to label it a strawman?
You’re quite a little piece of work. They had the measure of you MUCH more clearly than I did.
You’re so far down in that little hole you’re digging for yourself, you might as well settle in and take a little nappy poo, because you’re going to have to wait until the firemen come to rescue you, you’ll never make it up the sides.
Sweetheart, how much more clear could it have been when you discounted every teacher, and teacher’s relative here in this thread and out in the real world with phrases like “I call bullshit” “it’s not even credible” etc (as in the what FIFTEEN or so quotes of yours Happy repeats above, that you ARE in fact saying that you can assess how many hours every teacher poster (not every poster, since not all of us are teachers) work?
bolding mine
You’re not being called on the carpet because you 'didn’t say what we want" but because what you’re saying is pure unadulterated bullshit, like what YOU claim the hours of the teachers who’ve chimed in to be.
God help your friends, coworkers and family, if you’ll “stand by that” as truth. Because you most certainly did NOT say “take those who say they do it with a grain of salt”. As you prove by your OWN words that Happy quotes for you above. Nowhere, in any of your rabid posts did you temper it with “well, take this with a grain of salt” or “I don’t think all teachers work these hours”.
Oh HELL no, it was flat out war with “I call bullshit” “it’s not credible” and so on.
bolding mine
“What you actually say” is what has gotten you into so much trouble here in the First place. Good grief you’re a dense one.
Ab-sol-fucking-lutely. If I (or anyone) stormed in and made generalizations and accusations against any other group, with no other cite than “Because I know,” the same thing would happen.
How’d he do that? Did he call you a racist name? Near as I can tell, he just used a comparison/substitution to make a point, as I did, and as you have now attempted with the republican and ceo crap.
FTR, I initally said ‘arrogant.’ You’re the one who backed me up with use of the word ‘condescension.’
If that’s all you got out of this thread, it’s no wonder no one’s changed your mind. No one will ever change your mind on anything, because you only hear what you want to hear.
Attempting to claim the moral high ground now doesn’t win you any points after the shit storm you kicked up when you walked in. This thread was chock full of disagreement before you got here. But the disagreement was pretty civil. It wasn’t until you came in full of piss and condescension and put your metaphorical fingers in your metaphorical ears and metaphorically screamed ‘lalalalalabullshitlalala’ to actual teachers, and former teachers, and teachers’ spouses and factual cites-- that’s when people got pissed off.
People can disagree with people and remain civil. I diagreed with the OP, as did several others. Some agreed. Civil discourse is possible, even in the Pit. So maybe, just maybe, it’s not your opinion that makes you an asshole in many people’s books (although, to be honest, it doesn’t help, but that’s not my point right now), but rather it’s your delivery and douchebag-like attitude.
Anyway, I hope you enjoy living in your own little world where everyone’s trying to screw everyone else for themselves; where no one is ever able to take someone on their word; where the school systems are able to attract and maintain the best and brightest to educate their kids; and where the most vital people to society are also the highest paid.
And congrats on the Godwin thing. Cherish it. Relish in it. You’ve earned it.
I never said that. I said that, if you say that “most of group X are liars,” anyone who is part of group X is going to take that as an insult.
And, again, not even remotely something I’ve ever said.
That’s right, I changed what I wrote. I, and I alone, have Secret Mod Powers that allow me to go back and change what I wrote on the SDMB.
You mean I changed my argument, ya fuckin’ moron. Which I have not done. My position all along has consisted of three central premises:
Your very first post in this thread was unecessarily antagonistic and demeaning.
You are a hypocrite for whining when people insult you back.
You are also very, very stupid.
Show me one place in this thread where I have modified any of those premises, or the evidence I have used to prove them.
You don’t actually know what the “race card” is, do you?
No, I did nothing of the sort. Apparently, you don’t know what an analogy is, either. See, I took a statement that you made that you considered to be within the bounds of reasonable discourse, and compared it to another statement that was self-evidently inappropriate, even to someone as dim as yourself.
If the point I were trying to prove was that making a sweeping generalization about pro-athletes is as insulting to individual pro-athletes as a sweeping generalization about race is as insulting to individual members of that race, wether or not the generalization applied to that individual, then yes, I would make that response. Except I’d phrase it less ineptly, of course.
Yeah, I bet you know “blacks” about as well as you know teachers.
You really are a stupid fuckin’ putz, you know that?
The stupid! It BURNS!
So, you finally admit that you were acting like an asshole since your very first post? Guess that means I win. Yay.
You can’t? Then why should a teacher be pissed off by it?
I very much doubt that.
No one has said that you don’t have that right. You’re wrong, obviously, but you have every right to your ignorance, and any expression thereof. And if you had expressed it politely, you would have been corrected in an equally polite manner, and this thread probably would have died two pages ago. But you couldn’t do that, of course. Because in addition to merely being ignorant, you’re also an asshole. And so, you get treated like one.
Please, instead of saying “HappyLender posted,” please either show me the line (you can find it in my original text or copy it from HappyLender) where I call all teachers liars? I’m more than willing to stand behind my statement that most teachers are not overworked; it’s not the same thing.
Thank you. One of the amusing parts of this thread is that there’s a large number of people who seem to think that rather than actually debating something on the merits of the written text, writing things like, “You’ve lost! You’re out there! You are wrong, and a fuckhead,” is somehow a winning argument. As I have done before with others’ rhetorical styles here, let me attempt this debate method on you:
“You are really something, you know that? I thought you are reasonable, but now it is clear that you are not. You are so far out there, I’m not even sure that 20 psychologists with Ivy degrees could fish sane out of you.”
Oh yes, I have said powerful words - that means I win.
I don’t know Snookums, how much clear could I be when I say there is nothing in the text quoted where I discount every teacher here and in the real world? Please find my statement where I say that every teacher is overstating how hard they work, and how little they are paid? Go ahead, find it. I’ll wait, because it’s not there. I don’t think that.
The incredible thing is that you have great material. All you need to say is that I’m dead wrong that even most teachers are paid an acceptable salary and are not overworked. But you can’t handle that, you can only handle making up your own strawmen where I said that every teacher is lazy and overpaid, because that’s the only way you can create a nail that fits the argument that you want to use.
Find a different hammer; some have actually tried to argue against what I’ve said, as opposed to what they wanted me to say as a strawman.
Nope. I’ve said I call bullshit. That I don’t find it credible. I’ve said it about the majority of a group as a whole, rather than every member, and I’ve also said that I tend to discount stories of woe and destruction in the teaching profession. If that’s flat out war for you, then I stand by my original assumption. Flat out war for you means someone even questioning the credibility of the “overworked underpaid” party line.
No, you’re the dense one. Oooooh, another argument winner!
SlyFrog, what you are missing is that you have hit a nerve, and are being far more insulting than any amount of swear words.
Personally, I’m not going to get bent out of shape over someone who doesn’t know any better, but my mom currently works 70 hour weeks, including leaving early to teach band for no extra pay, and doing other school events for no pay. And she has to buy her own materials for her class. And the parents of problem kids are never helpful. And the mandates for teaching for the standardized tests are stifling and harmful to the kids, and she has to try and figure out ways to teach them in spite of the school system which is set up to hold kids back (no child can be left behind if none of them ever go anywhere).
She loves the kids, but I’m almost sure she would quit if she didn’t have my brothers and sisters to support. It’s just too stressful and damaging to deal with it all. I feel guilty that I can’t help.
As you can see, it can be an emotional subject, and calling people liars about it is much harsher than being called… whatever somebody looks up in the generic insult book.
This is in direct contravention of what you said above. You are saying here, undeniably, that "When you say most X are Y, if I am X you are saying I am also Y.
You mean like “pro atheletes are overpaid?” Someone said something to that effect in this thread I think; I’ll wait for your “Fuck you” posts to him or her.
You presume to know my race now, or how well I know a race? Is that just another stereotyped assumption you’ve made to fit me into your neat little categories of what I should be saying and thinking? “He disagrees with me regarding teacher pay, he must not be black or know black people.”
By the way, Godwin refers to Nazis and Hitler specifically as a device intended to convey the horror of the Nazi period. It does not refer to general reference to fascist thought and methods. Nice try at another hackneyed and misused device, however.
I love my career choice! I went into my profession knowing what to expect. I volunteered in classrooms in addition to substitute and student teaching. By the time I signed my first contract I had 4.5 years in the retirement system. Because I had a master’s degree my initial placement was all the way over on the pay scale.
When I began teaching I knew exactly what my salary would be. I did not know that years later the pay scale would remain unchanged in spite of COLA increases. When I began teaching, a teacher in step/column A1 would need 4 times his/her annual salary to buy a home. The salary hasn’t changed. Now it would take 8 to 9 times his/her annual salary to buy a home.
When I went to the orientation at my work site, I was in-serviced on the copier. We had to punch in a code to use it. We were allotted 600 copies per month. When our code reached the limit, we couldn’t use it until the next month when the secretary reset it. Next, we were told, “You use your own paper.” I thought she was joking. She wasn’t. I knew I would need to make copies, I did not know that they would be at my own expense and limited to 1 copy per student per day.
Many of the teachers at my site are in their second career. They “eat crow” on a regular basis because of all the misconceptions they had about teaching. They had no idea that if they needed a stapler they would have to provide it. They had no idea that if they needed to print a document (such as grades), they would be at the media tech’s mercy. They had no idea that they would have to go to Costco and buy their own ink cartridge if their printer ran out of ink. They had no idea that they were required to take professional development over the summer in order to keep their credentials valid.
They also didn’t know this: You can’t take it with you. If you leave your district in search of a better district you become a beginning teacher all over again. You may have taught for 17 years, but you are “new” to them. You will be required to go through beginning teacher orientation and go through all sorts of workshops designed for beginning teachers. You may have taught the workshops at your last district, but that is irrelavant. Also, districts won’t accept all of the years of teaching you may have had at another district. You may have been teaching for 17 years, but your new district may only recognize 5 of those years. As a result, veteran teachers would take a huge paycut by switching districts.
So you’re saying only the teachers that tell lies are the liars? And that teachers that say they are overworked and/or underpaid are the ones telling lies? And that the ones who say it’s not a cushy job are the ones telling lies? Then, my friend, I beleive you just called every teacher that posted here a liar.
Here, in your own stupid logic:
If A=teachers that tell lies, and B=teachers that say they’re o.w. and/or u.p., then A=B
If C=teachers who say it’s not cushy, then A=C
If D= people who have given you examples of their own experience with the teaching profession right here in this very thread, then D=B=C=A
I’m not making this stuff up, folks!
You got a lot of nerve talking about stereotyped assumptions.
I did research my benefits packages when I signed up. It hasn’t changed since then. This year my district wants to cut benefits and pay. That’s right–they want to deviate what it was that I signed up for. Suggestions?
At least you were not expected to pay for that protective equipment out of your own pocket. Although that isn’t a bad idea–firefighters should pay for their own protective gear, hoses, water, and anything else they use in their job.
Don’t you also pay taxes? Or are do firefighters have a tax-exempt privilege?
Your stupidity is un-fucking-real Maybe reading comprehension isn’t your problem, maybe it’s retention. If you want, I can give you about five hundred journal articles detailing what went wrong and how you can try to fix your mangled mind.
:smack:
Are you really that stupid? I myself have pointed it out to you no fewer than twice. 1) Your premise is factually incorrect and methodoligicaly incorrect.
2) You are acting like an asshole.
See, both are true. Again Spunky try to retain two ideas in your head at once. I know that steam starts shooting out of your ears, but try.
Listen moron, virtually everybody posting to you has followed the same pattern. 1) your facts are wrong 2) you’re also an asshole.
Jeez.
No, not every, “most”. That people in this thread who post evidence that you don’t like are probably liars. That you simply do not find such claims in the real world to be credible.
I would suggest you finish your highschool degree and learn to read. If you ask very nicely I can suggest a few teachers who could help you with your problems.
Um. Being that you don’t have one single valid fact…
Burden of proof and all that.
No, people can quote you being an asshole and calling people liars. It’s quite easy.
With no data, and in an obnoxious ‘tone’ of voice (or text, whatever).
That makes you 1) ignorant 2) an asshole.
Why do you still not get this???
Your ‘scientific study’ was not valid.
You can not speak with any degree of veracity to the majority of the group.
Fucking idiot.
Also based on zero evidence. Thus, again, ignorant and an asshole. Par for the course Spunky.
Good gods, are you braindead? Did you purposefully gloss over the facts and just glom onto the insults?
Here’s a tip Spunky, in the English language you need to read all the words. I know, I know, it’s a shock. Blame your English teachers.
Let me see if I have this straight. By your own logic, if I were to say, “In my opinion, most people on the SDMB whose usernames contain the word sly in them are backpedaling cowards who simply can’t admit when they are wrong.”, you would have no right to take offense at this because it wasn’t specifically aimed at you. Is that right?