SlyFrog: Just as you are allowed to sit back and call bullshit on teachers who say that they work long hours for little money, I call bullshit on you when you claim that you, “work 80 hours a week, every week, without pause.” So, you’re now a liar, based entirely on my say so. What? I don’t know what you do? I don’t know you? Doesn’t matter. You’re still a liar. And I didn’t have to claim some nameless and faceless accomplices. This is all coming from me.
The fact of the matter is that most teachers work damned hard at what they do, for less-than-stellar wages. 80 hours? I dunno. My wife doesn’t put in quite that much, but she worked every day of her Christmas break on getting ready to go back to school. And she does much the same thing on her summer breaks. Particularly the most recent, because she was starting in a new district. My experience is entirely anecdotal, and I freely admit it. But it also stands in direct opposition to everything that you’ve posted thus far. And depite what you claim, I seriously doubt that you have ever known a teacher in your entire life. Or, you’re just a miserable bastard.
Yeah, teach to the test. Y’wanna take a look around and see how well that’s worked to date?
Which bullshit state-mandated hoops are those? No, really.
Except that the person working at the local Blockbuster with a bachelor’s degree may or may not have the state-mandated (sorry, had to) qualifications to teach. As has been pointed out to you, the salary is not reasonable, and summers off is not an option. So, how many local kids do you think wanna take a stab at teaching?
As Happy Lendervedder pointed out, the average schmuck wants to walk, and the place of business is left holding the bag and either straightens up or folds. Education is an entirely different situation, which is pretty fucking obvious to anyone who pays attention. You clearly don’t.
And Cheesesteak: I know it’s been said previously, but you strike me as the sort who doesn’t retain anything until it’s been hammered home repeatedly. A “teacher crash” won’t do squat. A “teacher crash” has been happening for some time now, and as DoctorJ pointed out, it wasn’t until the teachers told the local government to shove it up their collective ass that anything was done. And even then, what was done didn’t help anyone except those in the rarefied levels of health care management. And if you had bothered to read (I’ll leave you to figure out who to thank for that skill) you would have read that three applicants for two jobs is pretty piss poor. Or do you feel comfortable knowing that your children (taking a header here, you may not have any) are being taught by those the district absolutely had to hire because nobody else applied?
Yes, that is exactly what I said, you didn’t misinterpret me in the slightest.
Hint, stating facts does not constitute happiness about those facts. Fact. Teachers have low wages and bad benefits. Fact. It’s been like this for decades. Fact. Teachers have had unions, wage battles and strikes for decades and it hasn’t changed Fact#1, it’s no better today than it ever was, if anything it’s worse.
Teachers consider their line of work more than just a job. It’s a calling, it’s good for the nation, it is an investment in our future, etc. Nobody thinks this way about being an accountant or stock trader or most other regular jobs. In a regular job, the most important thing you get out of it is money, so you won’t bother with a low paying job if there is a similar higher paying job out there. Teachers, otoh, get significant benefits outside of money, there have been tons of statements to that effect in just this thread.
Schools know this, and know that they don’t have to offer competitive wages to attract and retain teachers, so they don’t. You want to claim that they shouldn’t accept low wages, that’s fine, but they already do. One strike in one town doesn’t change that. This is reality.
This OTOH, is opinion–> If teachers took their calling a bit less seriously and walked away from the crappy wages, schools would be forced to offer more to get qualified teachers. Then their wages and benefits might approach what you’d find in the business world for people of similar education and ambition.
Has anyone else here ever negotiated with a school or college district? I have, with the latter. It’s hard to describe just how exhausting, frustrating, boring, drawn out, confusing, stressful, and maddening it is. We got no compensation. Someone had to do it, though, or we’d have had no contract. When you’re adjunct, you are paid only by the hour that you are actually in the classroom, so what may sound like a nice hourly rate isn’t so great at the end of the week, considering all the unpaid work hours, plus the reductions for taxes, social security, retirement, etc. When the semester is over, adjuncts become unemployed and then become new employees all over again if they get to teach more classes the next semester–which they could lose at the last minute, since there is no guarantee of work.
Before I left the Primitive Campus behind last year, I was there as my team was forced to declare an impasse twice in three years and go through mediation to get things settled. Believe me, no one likes to get to that point, and no one wants to think about a strike.
It certainly didn’t help when the district continued to cancel or postpone meetings, or have a lawyer present to slow things down, or when they absolutely refused to discuss something. I believe we also had more problems because we had very little support from our own unit members, who expressed only apathy or fear on a number of occasions.
It’s completely different at the More Evolved Campus, where the unit is larger, stronger, better supported and organized, and even the district is interested in progress and in making things ultimately better for the school and students as well as the faculty and staff.
I do not believe the hours worked, on average, are nearly as severe as the people in this thread are stating. You, apparently like many others in this thread may despise me for daring to not believe what they are saying, but that’s up to you.
I disagree. That seems like a relatively high end salary to me. Two persons working making that much make 80k a year. I’m pretty sure that’s a lot higher than the national average, which when I last checked was somewhere in the 40s for a family income.
Some of these complaints just seem out of touch with reality. What do most of the people on this thread think everyone else in other professions is making? $40,000 is a very healthy salary in this society.
Of course someone has the right to dictate what is enough for other given professions. We can’t simply decide to help ourselves to all the cash we need. If teachers want to complain publicly that they are not paid enough, I certainly have the right to agree or disagree.
As for the name calling, I think they are whining, I see no reason not to call it like it is. I don’t think that word is quite as powerful as some of the other ones that have been thrown around in response, but maybe we have different dictionaries. How you justify going from “they are whiny” to “fuck you with a 3 and 5/8” wrench, I’m not sure.
Of course. I just disagree that the majority of teachers are underpaid and overworked. I do not believe many of the examples on this thread; they are not credible to me. As I said, I would similarly not believe examples given from other professions. If they are accurate, then I believe they are of the 1 in 1,000 type, because they do not match what I have seen with my own eyes and have heard from others over the years. It may be anecdotal, but I’ll believe my anecdotal over the anecdotal of a teacher or their friends who have skin in the game.
I disagree with your assessment of what happened. I think you have been pretty reasonable. But let me take the most “profane” objectionable content I can find out of my first post:
Hmm. They list lots of figures so you can choose between them. Even by the strictest definition of what counts as work time, they work 9 3/4 hours per weekday - add five hours per weekend (definitely low) and you get 55 hours per week. Given a school year of 36 weeks per year, you get 1440 standard-time and 540 overtime hours per year. Assuming hours past 40/week are worth 150% of those preceding them, you get 2250 hours per year.
For a typical teacher pay scale (25000 for raw hire with batchelors, 40000 for 10 years experience plus masters, 60000 for 20 years, masters, and 45 credit hours beyond), this works out to twelve bucks per hour at the low end of the scale, nineteen dollars per hour in the middle, and twenty-seven per at the top.
This is about half of what someone with said qualifications and experience would earn in almost any other field. I can see why they’d be striking.
Okaaaaay. This is what we’ve been saying. And this is what those teachers who are preparing to strike are fighting against. so obviously teacher don’t all, as you say below ONLY "consider their line of work more than just a job. It’s a calling, it’s good for the nation, it is an investment in our future, etc. ".
Obviously, based on what those teachers are prepared to do, and based on what other teachers say in this thread, they ALSO are working toward getting an overall improvement in wages, treatment and so on for their profession.
I don’t despise you one bit. I think you’re being purposely ignorant, but certainly have no dislike for you as a person, I don’t know you.
You are, however, calling each and every teacher or teacher’s relative who has told you about their livelihood, a liar. A person couldn’t be blamed for being skeptical about “a friend of a friend” but when these people are telling you about their very lives and the specific instances they experience, calling them a liar is pretty damn inflammatory.
i don’t know, and am too lazy right now to look it up. My point is not whatever the number is. It’s that no one has a right to determine for any other profession, or person what is “enough” and then to heap criticism and scorn on them for attempting to better their lives. For one thing, it’s not as if these people are trying to go from 35k or 40k or whatever they’re at to double that or anything. They’re asking for a reasonable percentage of their salary as a wage, as well as reasonable benefits.
I don’t know what you do for a living, or what you make. But it’s wrong to view this, or any similar situation from a "well, they’re doing better than I am, and their job is nicer than mine, so they should shut up and be grateful’ stance.
That’s not reason, that’s jealousy. And believe me, I have it too. But I recognize and admit it for what it is. Hell, I’d LOVE to be making what some of the people out there are making, or have their lifestyles etc. But that doesn’t equate to they are making ‘enough’ and are being greedy if they ask for more etc.
Hell, even if we’re talking sports stars, one of my jealousies. They make what the market will bear. They are valued that much because there is enough public interest in what they do. The only way to GET that kind of validation is to work for it and if it’s not being noticed, then to bring it to those who aren’t noticing its attention.
And that is precisely what those teachers are doing. Nothing more. They’re not asking for the world, and whether they win, or lose, has no bearing on whether YOU (collective you) are successful in your life or not.
A cite was provided by, I think it was catsix showing the inequity of health insurance as compared to the wages of teachers in PA.
??? Are you kidding me? I make 90-120 bucks an hour for freelance tech writing and can be billed out at about that too, and I am bottom of the ladder as far as that. Have you any idea what lawyers make (other than public defenders)? Or businessmen? Consultants? Dentists? Hell construction workers? Any other profession with a degree has the opportunity to start out fairly decently, and then only increase as a person’s experience does.
Besides which 40k was the wage in YOUR neck of the woods, this is not a one size fits all wage, as many others have provided state cites for.
No one is suggesting we open the purse strings and let them take what they want. There is a difference between bargaining for an improvement and “getting all you want”. Second, you don’t have the right to stop someone from working toward improving their lot in life. THAT is what I mean. There ARE grey areas dear, you seem to insist upon seeing this as only black or white. That is, they either accept their lot in life, and agree that they have cushy well-paid jobs, whether they agree or not, or else we somehow open pandora’s box to supply them with their EVERY desire and monetary wish.
Funny how people react when you look them in the eye and tell them they’re lying.
As I stated above, I DON’T have a dog in this fight. But having read the cites I provided you, and having seen evidence in the schools where I briefly subbed, I do believe it. And just so you realize that you’re looking reasonable people, who’ve proven themselves to be stable believable people, in the eyes, and calling them to their faces, Liars.
Asked and answered above. You took these people’s livelihoods, shoved them down into the dirt, tromped on them a few times, called them liars regarding their very own life exxperiences, and then were shocked that they were angry. No, you didn’t cuss, but you didn’t need to, what you said, or more importantly the WAY you said it was intended to provoke, and it was inflammatory.
Calling a person a liar, especially to their face, when you have no proof, or even the remotest way of disproving what they say, is not a good thing.
Telling a person essentially, that their profession rates no right to assert itself or to attempt to improve the conditions or wages is not a good thing.
Right. Because the only way to insult someone is to use profanity. If you didn’t swear when you said something, clearly, whatever you said can’t have been insulting!
You said teachers were whining. Mildly insulting. You implied that teachers are liars. Pretty insulting. You called bachelor’s degrees a “useless commodity.” Very insulting. You not only dismissed people’s first hand testimony out of hand, you outright stated that simply listening to it made you want to vomit. Vastly insulting.
You’re acting like a dick in this thread. I’m fine with that. It’s the Pit, that’s what people do here. Just stop pretending that you weren’t the one who started it. You’ve been treated with exactly the same amount of respect that you’ve shown the other participants in this thread.
Huh? I have a masters and 8 years of experience AND I work in dangerous environments for a rather successful division in a very successful company. I make $50k a year. Half my ass. I started out with a bachelors making $9.50/hour and our current entry level salary for someone with a bachelors is…$12.00/hour.
Get off it, teachers aren’t THAT fucking under paid.
Hey, I have no doubt that somewhere, there might be a teacher working 80 hour work weeks. When someone tries to raise them up as an average example for travails of the profession, I call bullshit. If that’s calling someone a liar, so be it.
And in general, when you start running into too many stories about how many godawful hours a profession is working, when it doesn’t mesh with what you’ve seen yourself, when it doesn’t mesh with having friends who are teachers and always seem to be free on the weekends, when it doesn’t mesh with teachers who are able to pick up part time jobs in the summer even though they supposedly really don’t get the summer break, well, you start to have your doubts about most of the stories.
I have no idea where you are getting this from. The profession has every right to assert itself or to attempt to improve its condition or wages. I have every right to have an express an opinion that on average, they are paid enough already and are not overworked. It frustrates me that some would apparently advocate against the right to hold an opinion or express it.
[QUOTE=Miller]
You called bachelor’s degrees a “useless commodity.” Very insulting.
They are, what’s insulting about it? We’ve gone to the point where a college education is now the norm for getting any type of half-way decent paying job. It is no longer a ticket to the stars, especially from a vanilla university, it is merely a comodity to not work at McDonalds. There is nothing insulting about this, it simply is.
When people insult me, and then insult my intelligence with some of the ridiculous statements that have been made, sorry, I’m willing to express that it makes me want to throw up. A bit nasty yes, also a fairly standardly use comment. I didn’t realize it was considered that harsh in your neck of the woods. I’m a little amazed that you would compare it with what else has been thrown out.
There is no equivalence whatsoever. If you can really say what you just said with a straight face, it is very unlikely we will find any common ground on the issue.
While this could have very well been a thread for GD, it ain’t.
Trying to win points by claiming the “moral high ground” here is just distracting us from what a real arrogant douchebag you are.
You offended? What did you expect people to say to you in the Pit when you come in, and as Miller and CanvasShoes have pointed out, looked them in the eye and called them liars? This was a relatively clean Pit fight until you stormed in. That should tell you something.
I didn’t say they shouldn’t strike, nor did I say they shouldn’t try to get better working conditions. (if I did, it wasn’t my intent) I did definitely say that they shouldn’t whine about how hard they have it. It’s like a ditch digger complaining about calluses. When you decide to be a teacher, you know that the pay and hours suck, you shouldn’t complain about them as if they are a surprise.
I don’t think this strike (or any other local strike) will do jack shit to improve the situation overall. They’ll get a few extra bucks, some extra benefits, to put them a little bit over their neighboring town’s compensation and that’s it. They won’t get anything approaching a free market wage for their skills.
And Happy, that mule don’t seem to be getting any better on its own. Anyway, my preferred scenario isn’t the sort of thing that is legislated or commanded to happen, it’s a free market process, if the individuals don’t decide for themselves to walk, it’ll never happen.
Honestly, how can people not insult your intelligence? It’s just so easy!
Keep in mind, I’m just willing to express what I think. Don’t take it personally.
So, where exactly do you come from where “You make me want to puke” is not considered insulting? The Republic of Bulimia?
Actually, no, I don’t think they’re equivalent. I found your first post in this thread far more insulting than any of the replies you received. “Fuck you sideways with a rusty crowbar” is hard to take seriously as an insult. Calling someone a liar, as you did, without provocation, in your very first post in this thread, is an entirely different kettle of fish. Especially since you’ve been entirely unable to back up that accusation with anything even vaguely resembling factual support for your position. Quite unlike everyone else in this thread, I might add.
So, let’s have a little summary, shall we?
People in this thread have expressed the opinion that teachers are overworked and underpaid. Apparently, the fact that people have an opinion you do not share makes you physically ill. And yet, you whine incessently that people in this thread are not “allowing” you to have a differing opinion.
And, like all assholes, you are incapable of seperating objections to the substance of your opinion from the manner in which you presented it. Did you consider, perchance, expresisng your opinion without pre-emptively calling everyone who disagrees with you whiners, liars, and emetics? Of course not. That would require a modicum of respect and decorum, two qualities you lack to an astoundng degree. And then when people respond in the same tone you instigated yourself, you whine, once again incessently, that people are being unfair to you.
So, by my count, that makes you an asshole, a hypocrite, a whiny little bitch, and an ignoramus.
Any you’re still suprised at how people are treating you in this thread? Why don’t we just go ahead and upgrade that last clause to “total fucking idiot.”
Even my patience tends to fade after a bit. Sweetie, the “80 hour a week” thing was a mere one time example, by one or two posters. No one suggested that that was the norm, nor that that was THE reason that these teachers should strike. It was merely one example among many of some of the things that teachers as a whole have to face.
Let me try to break it down. Enough crappy stuff goes on in the teaching industry on an average enough basis to make the fact that the treatment there needs quite a bit of improvement, that there are tons of studies on this very thing re: teacher burnout, the long hours, the paying for supplies out of their own pockets, uncaring administrators and parents, just to name a few(again, I provided cites, catsix provided cites, others provided cites).
Enough crappy stuff goes on, so that compared to white collar jobs of similar annual wages and physical effort, it’s inequitable, and unfairly so. And therefore, some teachers at certain times work to CHANGE things and improve both their situation, and what they can bring to the school and students.
That does not then equate to “getting whatever they want”, it equates to enacting the same measures that every other profession employs by some means or another. These teachers just happen to have a strike clause. In other professions and in other areas, other means would be used. (work slowdowns etc).
What some in this thread are basically doing is according that right, and the right to do it without being subjected to cries of “selfish, greedy” etc to other similar professions, but not to teachers.
Ethically, this is not right.
Asked and answered above, and also asked and answered in a really good post by, I think it was CrazyCatLady?, anyway, regarding how the differences in the wages depending upon what part of the country, and even what part of the state/city in which you live. You see what you see in YOUR experience, because you happen to live in an area where this is possible. That is, that teachers aren’t required to work the long hours, and they live in an area where teacher pay happens to be higher, and the administration is such that there is more budget for supplies and it doesn’t end up coming out of people’s pockets as often.
Again, our cites show that the problems we describe here are serious and widespread enough so that many studies have taken place on the problems of teacher burnout and the shortage of qualified teachers.
We’re not arguing against your right to hold such an opinion, we’re arguing against the ignorance of the opinion itself. There is difference. What I said was that your opinion, as stated in this thread, that of believing "I have every right to have an express an opinion that on average, they are paid enough already and are not overworked"is not a good thing.
That means that we don’t agree with the substance of your opinion. That we believe it is not only ignorant, but wrong, and is not a good way of thinking.
Please then, go back to that first post and tell me where I called “someone” a liar. Go ahead.
But we might as well finish up the remainder of your pedantic post, where you continue to make up things people say to make them fit your profile.
Exagerate much? Please, where did I say "everyone who disagreeds with me is a whiner, liar, or emetic?
You really believe that the general statement that I believe the teachers union and most teachers who bitch about not being paid enough are whiners, and that I don’t believe the stories of most teachers who complain about their 80 hour work weeks is the really the equivalent to or worse than “Fuck you Miller, you are a fucking moron.”
As I said, if you can sit there and say that with a straight face (which you have now done twice), well, there’s not much more to say to you.
LOTS of people walk away from the profession. IIRC, in Texas, more than half the new teachers leave the profession within five years of beginning it. There are less stressful ways of putting most college degrees to work making money for you.
I don’t know enough about the situation in the OP to decide whether a strike will get these people more money or better benefits or a damn thing.
I have yet to encounter a lawyer who went to law school to make this a better place to live. That is to say, for anyone except himself, his loved ones, and his clients. Not to bash lawyers; I’ve known several who were good eggs, salt of the earth. But to compare teachers and lawyers is like comparing apples and oranges – they’re two different critters.
Please note, also, that teachers generally sign contracts with the schools for which they work, guaranteeing they’ll be around for the entire school year. This makes sense; kids’ education could well go down the tubes if teachers suddenly got a better offer from somewhere else. In rural districts or really crappy districts, they wouldn’t be able to hold onto teachers for more than a month before they were hired away.
…but the contract also means that if you walk off the job… for nearly any reason… your career is screwed. Nobody wants to hire a teacher whose last employer marks 'em as “unreliable.”
Any OTHER kind of employer who makes your life miserable, you can simply tell 'em to go piss up a rope, and take a hike. There are other jobs.
Teachers? Heh, heh. Not a chance. They get to stand and eat shit, or they can file a grievance with their professional organization, or union, IF their grievance is legitimate (i.e., a violation of the law, or something).
Oh, and if you count the time spent at home (generating lesson plans, typing stuff up, grading papers, planning, and so forth), it’s been my experience that most teachers work between 60 and 80 hours per week. Some work more than that. I’ve never heard of one who worked less than 50 hours a week; you can’t plan or do paperwork when the kids are in the classroom with you.
Am I whining? No. Knew what I was getting into when I applied for the job. But I reserve the right to do what I see fit when an administrator jerks me around by doing end-runs around the law, or a district jerks me around by refusing to pay me what they promised me (Sorry, district policy, sir!), or the state jerks me around by cutting taxes and then slashing school funding to cover the shortfall, or the President jerks me around by passing a damnfool law that makes it illegal for children to be stupid and holds ME responsible for upgrading their little brains, regardless of whether they wanna or can or not.
There is a difference between “whining” and “referencing legitimate grievances,” gang.
Then again, I understand lawyers take a lot of shit for all being crooks, despite the fact that there are honest, moral lawyers out there. Some folks just have to believe the legend, rather than learn something about what they’re slandering, you know?