Teaching Babies to "Swim" (RO as all get out)

[Freudian_Slit]

[QUOTE=Triskadecamus]
Well, having watched the whole video, I must say it seems a poorly advised learning technique, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the program I watched in person.

What I saw on the tape does not seem to me to be inspiring a child to confidence. Really well run programs work wonders with real infants, but they are absolutely not like what that video shows.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah. It seems a shame that this child might associate swimming with something not fun or scary. At the pool where I swam this summer, I’d see a father bringing his toddler aged son into the pool and holding him and the kid seemed to enjoy it. It just seems important to me to make swimming fun and enjoyable.

[outlierrn]

I agree with Picunurse Fessie, the kids not nearly as distressed as you think. The potential for over confidence exists. The way the kid flips over at 2:28 is an observable fact.

Do you have any cites comparing drowning rates of kids with this training vs those without?

[Kalhoun]

[QUOTE=fessie]
Clearly some kids do take to it easily - this summer I saw a kid who couldn’t have been more than 3 yrs old dive off the board into the deep water and then swim to the side. That’s great.

And I won’t say kids should never be traumatized even briefly - you bet my kids cried when they got their vaccinations.

But the return on investment for this particular endeavor is pretty low, from what I’ve read. Both the American and Canadian Academies of Pediatrics caution that small children are not safe in water, even when they’ve had lessons. Given how many children drown in retention ponds each summer, is it really a good idea to get them over their fear of water? Seems to me like a healthy instinct.

What I think must be particularly baffling to a little 'un is the way everyone else is calm and smiling and clapping while she’s in an absolute panic. That’s how it was in the other video I saw, I don’t know if that’s what this video shows, but it’s my impression that’s how these lessons go. I REALLY don’t get that. If your kid was in trouble in the pool, you can bet your ass you’d be terrified and responsive to the child’s fear. How must it feel to be frightened and have nobody care.
[/QUOTE]

Not nearly as terrifying as falling into deep water and not being able to right yourself and save your life. It isn’t supposed to make anyone believe it is “safe” for a toddler to be in the water, but if it buys the kid 30 seconds … enough time that maybe someone will notice that the kid is in trouble, it could be the difference between life and death.

[stretch]

Fessie, being an older mother of twins has caused you to become too worried about kids in general. This is a kid taking the final test of a water survival course, not a toddler being drowned or even a “swim” lesson. You can tell that it is about survival in a bad situation because the kid is wearing shoes and a coat, not her swimsuit. This is a specialized class and a good idea if you are going to be around water with your toddler on a regular basis.

Please remember, some people have raised kids before and actually have a handle on what they are doing. Some of us have been around kids for longer than the 3 years you’ve put in.

IMO, from reading your posts, you are an over-protective and stiffling parent, but you are entitled to raise/ruin your kids’ using your preferred method. Now if only you could let the rest of the people in the world go about raising their kids the way they think is best.

[CRich]

We have 3 children and a backyard in-ground pool. We played and swam with our kids in the pool from the time that they were tiny babies. The ONLY thing that we ever relied upon was our never-ending vigilance. We installed special locks on the doors and the gates, and we never, ever, NEVER allowed our children in the pool area without us being constantly on guard. We watched them every moment, never more than a few feet away. I never let go of that fear that something could happen in an instant, so I never relaxed my guard.

While I did think the little girl’s ability to turn herself over was very nice, I would not stake my child’s life on that ability. Too many other things could go wrong, there are too many uncontrollable variables. I don’t think those lessons would be effective, and I think you would run the very real risk that Mom & Dad would relax their vigilance.

Now, I know I made that first paragraph sound really scary–we love our pool; it has been the source of a great deal of fun throughout the years. All of our children have grown up to be very confident swimmers; all of them love the water. None of them ever had to endure what that little girl went through to achieve the same end result. While I don’t think she’s scarred for life, I also don’t think that’s the best way to teach water safety.

[fessie]

[QUOTE=stretch]
Fessie, being an older mother of twins has caused you to become too worried about kids in general. This is a kid taking the final test of a water survival course, not a toddler being drowned or even a “swim” lesson. You can tell that it is about survival in a bad situation because the kid is wearing shoes and a coat, not her swimsuit. This is a specialized class and a good idea if you are going to be around water with your toddler on a regular basis.

Please remember, some people have raised kids before and actually have a handle on what they are doing. Some of us have been around kids for longer than the 3 years you’ve put in.

IMO, from reading your posts, you are an over-protective and stiffling parent, but you are entitled to raise/ruin your kids’ using your preferred method. Now if only you could let the rest of the people in the world go about raising their kids the way they think is best.
[/QUOTE]

ummm…hmmm…uhhh…gee — what was that phrase???..

Oh yeah
Fuck you.

Your dislike of me has absolutely no bearing on the accuracy of the cites I already provided in this thread.

The American Academy of Pediatrics’ policy statement and recommendations have nothing to do with me.
From the cite I already gave:

@www.usa.safekids.org/NSKW.cfmChild Death Review Survey Results

Nearly three-quarters (74 percent) of drowning victims in the reviewed deaths did not know how to swim. Seventy-three percent of victims ages 5 to 9 did not know how to swim, while only 30 percent of victims ages 10 to 14 did not know how to swim. None of the victims ages 4 and under knew how to swim.

While there is no conclusive evidence that drowning rates are higher for less experienced swimmers, swimming lessons often include survival skills training that may be useful in an emergency.

Parent and Tween Survey Results
Although 82 percent of parents agree that all children should take swimming lessons by age 8, nearly four in ten parents (37 percent) of children ages 5 to 14 report that their child has never taken lessons. In addition, 39 percent of tweens report that they have never taken swimming lessons. Twenty-four percent of parents of children ages 5 to 9 and 11 percent of parents of children ages 10 to 14 report that their child is a non-swimmer or a poor swimmer.

More than half of parents (54 percent) believe that swimming lessons can prevent children from drowning. Sixty-three percent of parents whose children have taken lessons and 65 percent of tweens who have taken lessons report that the instruction included some water survival skills training, such as treading water and survival floating. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that “children are generally not developmentally ready for formal swimming lessons until after their fourth birthday.”26

Seventy percent of parents surveyed have been trained in infant and child CPR. Reasons for lack of training commonly cited include classes offered at inconvenient times and places (29 percent) or a lack of time to take classes (27 percent).

SAFE KIDS Recommendations

* Children should be enrolled in swimming lessons by age 8. Parents can check with their local department of parks and recreation or Red Cross chapter to find a certified instructor near them. Look for classes that include emergency water survival techniques training.
* Parents and caregivers should learn infant and child CPR.
* Educate children about the rules of water safety, including:
      o Always swim with a buddy and an adult present;
      o Never swim in an open body of water or participate in water sports without wearing a
        PFD;
      o Never dive into a river, lake or ocean; and
      o If someone is in trouble in the water, call for help and throw something that floats to the victim. A child should never enter the water to try to save someone.

CONCLUSIONS

* Parents are overconfident about their children’s safety and abilities around water. **Although drowning is the second leading cause of injury-related death for children ages 1 to 14, more than half (55 percent) of parents say that they do not worry much or at all about their child drowning.**

*
  Drownings most commonly occur in recreational settings, often pools and open bodies of water. In fact, national data suggest that more than 385 children ages 14 and under drown each year while participating in water recreation, such as swimming or boating. Nearly half of these recreational drowning deaths (49 percent) are among children ages 5 to 14.27

* Adults must install multiple layers of protection around home pools and be consistent in using barriers that do exist. While 98 percent of pool- or spa-owning parents report they have taken adequate steps to ensure children’s safety, most responses also reflect a lack of actual environmental modifications – nearly two-thirds (61 percent) of pool- and spa-owning parents have no isolation fencing, and 43 percent have no self-closing and self-latching gate.

* Adults must increase the quality of their supervision of children around water, as nearly 9 in 10 deaths reviewed occurred while the child was being supervised. While nearly all parents said they always actively supervise their children while swimming, parents also admit to participating in a variety of distracting behaviors while supervising.

* Caregivers need to enforce the consistent use of PFDs in potentially hazardous situations. Many tweens admit that they never wear a PFD when riding a personal watercraft (50 percent), participating in water sports (37 percent) or on a boat (16 percent). While parents recognize the importance of PFD use, they do not always require their children to wear PFDs or model safe behavior for their children.

* More children should be enrolled in swimming lessons taught by a certified swimming instructor. Although the majority of parents (82 percent) agree that all children should take swimming lessons by age 8, 37 percent of parents of children ages 5 to 14 report that their child has never taken swimming lessons.

[catsix]

That could’ve easily been me at that age. I learned to swim right around the same time that I learned to walk, and when my father freaked out at the sight of me going off the diving board at ~2 y ears old into 12 feet of water my mother said ‘Really, what’s the difference? She can’t stand up in 3 feet of water either.’

Swimmer ever since, love the water, and feel very at home in it. I learned young to relax and fill up my lungs if I was tired because I’d float.

[Miller]

fessie, maybe I’m missing something, but your cite seems to undercut your argument, rather than support it.

[Marley23]

[QUOTE=Miller]
fessie, maybe I’m missing something, but your cite seems to undercut your argument, rather than support it.
[/QUOTE]

Her cite earlier was clearer. I don’t think the newer one really undercuts her- it says swimming lessons are important but doesn’t prove that a kid that young will get anything out of them, long term.

[stretch]

Fessie, I have no problem with you yet, just letting you know that your parenting skills may not be the best in other people’s opinions either, so maybe you should back off the judgemental tone of how you know best when you don’t know shit.

And again, swimming and survival training are different things, so maybe you should treat them that way.

[Hilarity_N.Suze]

[QUOTE=fessie]
There’s no proof that that’s true. I’ve quote several cites already.

And I’ll tell you that little kids learn and re-learn stuff ALL the time. There’s no “now they’ve got it” moment of competence, on anything. Some days they trip over their own feet!

I don’t have a problem with taking infants and babies into the water - shoot, we took ours into a deep pool for the first time when they were about a year old.

I object to the fact that the kid’s screaming and no one is helping. That’s drama for the parents, and it’s bullshit. The idea that it’s worthwhile because they’re actually learning something (“No pain, no gain”) is not proven.
[/QUOTE]

Well, you have your cites. I am a parent, three out of four of my sons have survived to adulthood (and the fourth is still a kid), and I used to be a lifeguard.

A lot of people have this image that drowning victims come up three times yelling for help. Well, some might, but not all of them. Kids, in particular, just go under and don’t come back up. They sink, and even if they’re in a pool with a lifeguard on duty it can happen very quickly.

The kind of thing I’m talking about is NOT going to happen to that kid, because she’s going to be either on her back or actively paddling toward the side of the pool (lake, whatever). As a lifeguard, if I saw a kid that age doing either one of those things I would go and pull them out, but a kid like that I’d see a lot sooner than one who was quietly sinking to the bottom of the pool.

So my chief objection to what is happening to her remains that she’s been put on the internet.

You seem to just want to be upset about the way someone else is raising their child.

[fessie]

[QUOTE=Marley23]
Her cite earlier was clearer. I don’t think the newer one really undercuts her- it says swimming lessons are important but doesn’t prove that a kid that young will get anything out of them, long term.
[/QUOTE]

Miller, the sum of the cites is that swimming lessons (which include safety training) are essential for children sometime between the ages of 4 and 8; prior to age 4, there’s no evidence that kids can really learn anything helpful (one AAP cite, offered earlier, stated that learning at age 2 and 3 isn’t retained).

Obviously most of us have known or seen (or were) kids who thrived in water prior to age 4.

I don’t think the kid in the video (or the other ones like it) are an example of that. As I said in the OP, I can’t stand to watch this whole video. It honestly makes me sick when she’s struggling, makes it to the wall, and the instructor drags her back in.

[fessie]

[QUOTE=stretch]
Fessie, I have no problem with you yet, just letting you know that your parenting skills may not be the best in other people’s opinions either, so maybe you should back off the judgemental tone of how you know best when you don’t know shit.

And again, swimming and survival training are different things, so maybe you should treat them that way.
[/QUOTE]

It’s not ME. Read the cites. THEY are the experts.

Not me.

Maaaan, if I came on here and proclaimed the virtues of glass crystals or magnetic bracelets designed to keep kids safe & had NO proof that my results worked, I’d get ripped up one side and down the other.

IIRC, one of my cites (can’t remember where it was & it’s time for dinner) said that toddlers who HADN’T had any “survival training” fared just as well as those who did. I think these people are selling serious snake oil, and I’m surprised nobody’s been sued.

[Cattitude]

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Not nearly as terrifying as falling into deep water and not being able to right yourself and save your life. It isn’t supposed to make anyone believe it is “safe” for a toddler to be in the water, but if it buys the kid 30 seconds … enough time that maybe someone will notice that the kid is in trouble, it could be the difference between life and death.
[/QUOTE]

Hell yea. That little one impressed me and I thought I was in for a video of a screaming kid .
Nope, just a determined little one who may have been a little pissed. But I give her credit. And the parents credit. I don’t think this would make them lax or let down their guard. I think it’s just an added layer of protection. Because shit happens.

[picunurse]

My husband was taught to swim as an infant. He went on to become a National swimming champion.
He just told me he remembers his survival test. He watched the video, and said his was very much the same.
He had to take the survival test every year until he was about 10. (his mom’s rule*) He said he cried too. It was uncomfortable. It wasn’t frightening.

*His mom would push him in the pool unexpectedly fully clothed to prove he could save himself. It never scared him, but it did Piss Him Off, royally. She did this with at least three rescuers present.

[MissGypsy]

fessie, I’m with you on this one. I tend to go with AAP recommendations, much of the time. My oldest is 6, and I still haven’t put him in swimming lessons, because of his disabilities. I wouldn’t dream of putting my 2-year-old or 1-year-old in a situation like that.

My sister-in-law has an in-ground pool in her backyard, and her kids are teenagers. Her rule is still that no kids are around the pool unless an adult who is a strong swimmer is sitting in a certain chair about 10 feet away from where everyone else might be sitting, and watching the kids. No chit-chat, no distractions. That adult has had to jump in more than once to pull a kid out of that pool, and most of the kids around there are adequate swimmers.

Fear of water is a healthy instinct for people who can’t swim. I don’t want my 1-year-old to be so comfortable around water that he crawls into the pool. He can be afraid of it until he’s 5 or so and takes formal swimming lessons. I agree that early swimming lessons give many parents a false sense of security, because I’ve seen it so often.

[MovieMogul]

[QUOTE=fessie]
There were no rolleyes in my quote.
[/QUOTE]
You’re right–the rolleyes was for you, not from you. Apologies.

Of course, the fact that you completely misrepresented his statement is another matter entirely–one unworthy of commenting on. :rolleyes:

[Beaucarnea]

I am not an expert, but living proof that infants younger than 3 months can be taught to swim. Parents have video of my first swimming lesson when I was 2 or 3 months- sort of dog paddling and putting my face in the water with eyes wide open. Then I’d get tired and flip over and float on my back for awhile. This was apparently common practice for parents in the seventies- many of my friends have had the same experience.

I swim like a fish today, even in bad conditions, deep water, or strong current. I credit the early lessons with my ease and comfort in the water.

[fessie]

Sort of off-topic, but I have a question for you folks who are proficient swimmers – did you spend a lot of time at the pool or beach as children?

I ask because my childhood exposure to swimming consisted of 2 weeks at “Swim Lessons” every summer and nothing else. My parents never ever took us swimming for fun. Neither of them even owned a bathing suit. We were in the middle of Indiana so it wasn’t that big an issue, but I can’t help but wonder about the interplay between swim instruction and family recreation.

[Jackmannii]

[QUOTE=fessie]
I have a question for you folks who are proficient swimmers – did you spend a lot of time at the pool or beach as children?
[/quote]
I didn’t start to be an accomplished swimmer until age 3, when Ma threw me off the Staten Island Ferry when we were halfway to Manhattan.

January is a bit chilly to swim in New York Harbor, but Ma shouted encouragement at me (at least until the boat was out of earshot) and I wound up safely on the Jersey shore, immeasurably toughened by the experience.

That water sure is yucky, though.