Teaching Babies to "Swim" (RO as all get out)

The BBQ Pit
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[QUOTE=fessie]
Sort of off-topic, but I have a question for you folks who are proficient swimmers – did you spend a lot of time at the pool or beach as children?

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Like I said up-thread, we had a small-to-medium-sized above-ground pool growing up, and got good use out of it before time and elements sent it to the great swimming pool in the sky. After that, we joined a local swim club, and spent every moment we could every summer there.

Then my Dad was Mr. Outdoors, and Missouri and southern Illinois have plenty of fine rivers and lakes for swimming, canoeing, sailing, skiing, etc.

ETA: friggin’ spelling!

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[QUOTE=fessie]
Sort of off-topic, but I have a question for you folks who are proficient swimmers – did you spend a lot of time at the pool or beach as children?

I ask because my childhood exposure to swimming consisted of 2 weeks at “Swim Lessons” every summer and nothing else. My parents never ever took us swimming for fun. Neither of them even owned a bathing suit. We were in the middle of Indiana so it wasn’t that big an issue, but I can’t help but wonder about the interplay between swim instruction and family recreation.
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Yep. Mom and Dad were teachers and golfers with summers off- we got dumped at the Country Club pool every sunny day. Our pool guidelines insisted that all children under the age of 12 prove swimming ability before being granted pool membership. We were asked to swim the length of the pool twice, dive to the bottom of the deep end and retrieve an object, and tread water for 2 minutes. We had to be re-certified each season. I remember being unattended by parents at the pool at age 8, possibly younger, as were all my buddies.

Water can be terrifying for those not exposed to swimming, so I understand the discomfort about early lessons; but in my corner of the world lakes, rivers, ponds, and landscape items like decorative ponds and fountains are common.

I feel strongly that kids are both curious and crafty, and will find water and anything else declared “off-limits” when possible. Since testing limits is part of growing up, kids should be prepared for all kinds of hazards.
ETA: kids don’t like vaccinations, taking medicine, eating veggies, or the sting of disinfectant on wounds, either. Some things are unpleasant about growing up, but we do them for their own good whether they are painful, scary, or just kind of ouchy.

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[QUOTE=fessie]

IIRC, one of my cites (can’t remember where it was & it’s time for dinner) said that toddlers who HADN’T had any “survival training” fared just as well as those who did. I think these people are selling serious snake oil, and I’m surprised nobody’s been sued.
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I read your cites and don’t recall seeing this, if you can find it please post. Also, I think the risk of water intoxication and ear infections is pretty specious, any statistical evidence to back it up?

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Seven days a week every summer for the first sixteen years of my life. Never in my life had a formal swimming lesson and basically learned to swim by just figuring things out for myself. I learned diving from a diving board when I was about three.

My mother never liked going in the water, so my aunt took the early early years being in the pool while my sister and I would endlessly go from diving board to pool to ladder and repeat. After I was maybe four years old, they both just watched from the grassy area beside the pool where they sat on their blanket. I don’t remember ever being afraid of water.

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[QUOTE=fessie]
Sort of off-topic, but I have a question for you folks who are proficient swimmers – did you spend a lot of time at the pool or beach as children?

I ask because my childhood exposure to swimming consisted of 2 weeks at “Swim Lessons” every summer and nothing else. My parents never ever took us swimming for fun. Neither of them even owned a bathing suit. We were in the middle of Indiana so it wasn’t that big an issue, but I can’t help but wonder about the interplay between swim instruction and family recreation.
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I am a very strong swimmer. I swam regularly (and competitively) from age 5 until my junior year in college when I blew my shoulder. As children my sister and I had a high exposure to water. We had a local pool we went to every day as kids (outside in the summer, at the Y in the winter). My house was a block from a swimmable creek, three blocks from a non-swimmable river (but we did anyway, 'cause kids don’t pay attention), and about 6 blocks from a skatable but too-dirty-to-swim-in lake. Nearly all our vacations involved water-- we went to the shore once or twice a month (and for 2 weeks) every summer, plus visits to my uncle’s house on Lake Saratoga.

According to my parents I had no fear of water at any age. (And don’t today. I have a deep respect for the dangers of the ocean, but no fear of any water at any depth.) I learned to hold my breath and blow bubbles in the bathtub, and at two would pull my swimmies off and demand to be allowed to float unaided. Mom and Dad got me beginner lessons at 3. They asked us to put our mouths in the water, I announced that I could touch the bottom of the pool, “Wanna see?”.

I ended up taking the advanced class with 6 year olds that summer, and the following summer I learned my 4 strokes. After showing I could swim from one end of the pool to the other (25 yards) using proper technique, I was allowed in the pool and lake without flotation and without a parent in the water with me. I was allowed in the (Atlantic) ocean past the breakers when I proved to my parents I could swim out against the waves and back again. I think I was 9. When I was 11 my Dad and I went snorkeling in open ocean over the Great Barrier Reef in Australia, and from then on I was allowed to swim wherever/whenever I wished. In top shape I could swim for miles.

My mom grew up 2 blocks from the Atlantic on the Jersey Shore, and my Dad grew up about the same distance from the Long Island Sound. Both of my parents (and aunts and uncles and cousins) are extremely strong swimmers. Growing up on the water, it’s a lot like kids growing up on ranches who learn to ride horses being put in the saddle with Daddy before they can even walk.

I must admit, the idea of not teaching children swimming or having them in the water until 4 sounds crazy to me. It’s so different from how I was raised (I asked my mother, just now, and she feels it would have been irresponsible not to teach us as early as possible, given how much water we were around-- you can’t fence everything). I intend to take my kids into Lake Tahoe (and the local pool) as soon as I think they’re old enought to tolerate the temperature (or the chlorine). It’s just what’s natural to me.

My experience as a lifeguard and is that technique and genuine “swimming” is lost on the under-fours. However, they did seem to benefit from learning water comfort (as in, not panicking), holding breath and not inhaling water, floating on the back, making a fuss and calling for help (one of the earliest lessons I remember them teaching my sister). Kids unfamiliar with water tended to sink like stones, and then flail around underwater where no one can see or hear them. If all that kid in the video learns is to flail at the surface and scream, she’s got a leg up on the ones who freeze.

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[QUOTE=fessie]
Sort of off-topic, but I have a question for you folks who are proficient swimmers – did you spend a lot of time at the pool or beach as children?

I ask because my childhood exposure to swimming consisted of 2 weeks at “Swim Lessons” every summer and nothing else. My parents never ever took us swimming for fun. Neither of them even owned a bathing suit. We were in the middle of Indiana so it wasn’t that big an issue, but I can’t help but wonder about the interplay between swim instruction and family recreation.
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It’s been pretty clear in this thread that you’re not too comfortable with water, and probably didn’t have a lot of exposure to swimming while growing up (or, what exposure you had wasn’t pleasant).

Look over the thread: most of the people who say they were started out at a really early age also say that they’re excellent swimmers and still love swimming now. That is the reason that parents put their tykes into pre-swimming classes, not because they expect their 2-year old will be zooming around doing the butterfly in no time.

I’ve taught those classes (for the YMCA), and at no time did we ever claim to parents that they could leave their tykes unsupervised to splash around in the pool. In fact, part of the classes was us pounding it into the parents’ heads that once the kids became accustomed to splashing around in the pool, the parents would have to be more vigilant, not less. The classes weren’t for water safety – they were to make the kids less fearful of going into the water with mommy or daddy (a big problem), but mostly were something to do for the kids and parents to have fun. It ain’t easy, keeping little kids entertained.

And I type this, having learned this weekend that one of my Number One Nephew’s little friends drowned in KC last week, at an excursion to a pool where the adults present got distracted for just a few moments. He was actually going to swim camp with my nephew. I don’t think he’d turned 4, yet.

And my dad was a swimmer and diver, so my brother and I got very early swimming lessons, that continued for most of our childhood. In summer, we were at the pool most every day, and often wheedled trips to a Y pool or something when it wasn’t summer. We’re excellent swimmers. My nephews look to be on the same path – they both love splashing around in the pool, and Number One Nephew is learning some competence in floating and stuff. But he still freaks out randomly in the pool, and must be encouraged to try again. And you can damn well bet that we’re watching them like hawks when they’re near water.

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You should see the video of me when I was about 3…they just dropped you in the water back then with the ladder on the other side of the pool. Good times.

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[QUOTE=Obsidian]
I must admit, the idea of not teaching children swimming or having them in the water until 4 sounds crazy to me.
[/QUOTE]

OK, Wait, let me clarify - - that’s not at ALL what I’m suggesting. We’ve taken our 3-yr-old twins to play in water (can’t really call it “swimming”) at least a couple dozen times already, including a trip to Chicago’s North Ave beach (which was a TOTAL blast).

And yeah, they get water up their noses and cough and sputter. And splash and jump. We just started teaching them to float a little bit this year. Next year I leave the instruction to the pros.

Lightray, are you sure we’re talking about the same kind of classes? The cites I found made a clear distinction between the type of “survival training” captured on the linked YouTube video and the type of instruction offered at the Y. I’m not opposed to the latter in the least. Not at all.
outliern I’ll look for that. And yes, I agree that a cite I found later said the water intoxication incidence is pretty small.

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[QUOTE=Lightray]
… I don’t think he’d turned 4, yet.
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Crud, missed the edit window. Meant to say: He was 4, hadn’t turned 5.

And to avoid a content-free post, let me say as a former swimming instructor of these kiddie classes, regular classes (Poliwog through Shark for the Y), and even lifesaving classes… the job was so much easier and more effective when the beginners had been exposed to this type of pre-swimming stuff before.

The absolute worst kids to teach are the ones who’ve never been exposed to swimming lessons before, don’t have much familiarity with the water, and now here’s this strange guy (or gal) trying to get them to put their face in the water!!! (horrors) – and mom is right there on the side of the pool, within scream-shot.

Classes went like this: “Bobby, put your face in the water and blow bubbles now.” Bobby: inhales water, shrieks at the top of his lungs. Mommy: “Poor baby!” and class derailed for 5-minutes as Bobby takes attention away from all of the other kiddies happily blowing bubbles in the water.

Kids who’ve done this kind of early learning in the pool at least understand that they’re expected to listen and learn from the teacher when they’re in the pool for class. Usually don’t, of course; they’re kids. But at least the class can move on from “how to behave in swim class” and get to the “how to swim” stuff.

eta: fessie, the classes we taught at the Y had the “let them try to swim/thrash around on their own” as the final lesson, so to speak. Not dressed, but mom (usually) was asked to allow the kid to struggle a bit before swooping in to the rescue. (the moms often fell short of that request).

And while the kids were momentarily nonplussed, the parents were usually far more traumatized. I spent a lot of time on the last day saying “see, that wasn’t so bad now, was it?”

To the parent.

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I am as baffled as fessie here. She has provided links to very credible cites that infant swim lessons of this kind have potentially harmful outcomes, and that the positive benefits are not retained by the “students”. In the avalanche of anecdotal evidence brought up to discredit her argument I have seen no cites from similarly high profile agencies proclaiming the virtues of such lessons. Just a whole lotta nothin’. Y’all should be ashamed of yourselves.

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I’ll tell you what, Quint. I’ll concede that there are people that have done studies that disagree with what a large number of us believe to be an effective strategy for protecting our children if fessie backs off with the “I want it BANNED!” crap, as if it’s her choice in the first place.

Jesus Christ, it’s a survival skill, not female infibulation. :rolleyes:

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[QUOTE=fessie]
OK, Wait, let me clarify - - that’s not at ALL what I’m suggesting. We’ve taken our 3-yr-old twins to play in water (can’t really call it “swimming”) at least a couple dozen times already, including a trip to Chicago’s North Ave beach (which was a TOTAL blast).

And yeah, they get water up their noses and cough and sputter. And splash and jump. We just started teaching them to float a little bit this year. Next year I leave the instruction to the pros.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, someone upthread mentioned being happy with her kid being afraid of the water until 5 or so, and I conflated things. The cites provided state there’s no point into starting lessons until 4, and it doesn’t really compute with experience.

Quint, I think the problem is that for many of us it’s not a stray “this happened to me once” anecdote. It could be a coastal thing, but the vast majority of people I know in real life (and literally, my entire family), were swimming by preschool. There is a certain point where one gives merit to their own experience over a cite from authority (which isn’t even terribly conclusive, or clear, in it’s points), no matter how large and well respected that authority is.

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[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
I’ll tell you what, Quint. I’ll concede that there are people that have done studies that disagree with what a large number of us believe to be an effective strategy for protecting our children if fessie backs off with the “I want it BANNED!” crap, as if it’s her choice in the first place.

Jesus Christ, it’s a survival skill, not female infibulation. :rolleyes:
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What, you think I’ve got time to picket pools? I can’t even get people in this thread to listen to me.

I did learn some…not “good”…maybe “important” information while arguing, though. I didn’t know how many kids drowned each year right in front of their families, and how many of them “knew” how to swim.

I think an accurate picture of the true risks is a good thing to have, and I hope like Hell none of us ever finds out firsthand.

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[QUOTE=Obsidian]
Quint, I think the problem is that for many of us it’s not a stray “this happened to me once” anecdote. It could be a coastal thing, but the vast majority of people I know in real life (and literally, my entire family), were swimming by preschool. There is a certain point where one gives merit to their own experience over a cite from authority (which isn’t even terribly conclusive, or clear, in it’s points), no matter how large and well respected that authority is.
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I don’t understand what some kids being able to swim by preschool has to do with the video in the OP. My kid is 4, has been in lessons since he was 1, and can swim quite well (and does so almost every day). Some of the first things he learned were how to get to the edge of a pool and how to float on his back. He managed all of this without being routinely subjected to “lessons” in which he was thrown in or where he felt like he needed to scream in fear (or anger, for those of you who don’t think the kid in the video is scared). I agree with** fessie ** on this one and I’m really kind of surprised at the reaction to this. I think it’s really strange that so many people think this technique is the most effective way of teaching a kid water safety.

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[QUOTE=C3]
I think it’s really strange that so many people think this technique is the most effective way of teaching a kid water safety.
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Nobody said that this is the “most effective” way to teach it.

However, I think it is an effective way, and it’s not for Big Nanny to tell me what worked for a boatload of us should be canned because it bothered her.

One day I will take the training wheels off the Bike and Aaron will have to ride it or fall off. And one day I will take off the flotation device and he’ll sink or swim. I guess that makes me a bad parent because I am willfully endangering my child.

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I only just noticed this, but why is the Youtube video posted by “Punchline Comedy Club”? It doesn’t seem to be a joke (and that is an actual child going through it all.)

Though ‘Haydn’ seems a little odd way to spell that name. I figured it was Symphony No. 26.

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[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
Nobody said that this is the “most effective” way to teach it.

However, I think it is an effective way, and it’s not for Big Nanny to tell me what worked for a boatload of us should be canned because it bothered her.

One day I will take the training wheels off the Bike and Aaron will have to ride it or fall off. And one day I will take off the flotation device and he’ll sink or swim. I guess that makes me a bad parent because I am willfully endangering my child.
[/QUOTE]

If you take the training wheels off and he becomes a blubbering mess, shrieking in fear, are you going to give him a good push? Or are you going to calm him down, talk him through it and maybe wait for another day if he’s too upset? This is the difference in techniques I’m talking about. (And from what I’ve read from you in regard to your son, I’m picturing you going with the second option.)

Also, I may be missing it, but I didn’t see anywhere where fessie said this technique should be banned. My impression is that she just thinks it’s really, really stupid and a marketing gimmick that isn’t really effective at all. There are a lot of parenting decisions people make that I think are horrible, but I’m not calling for any laws to be passed. We’re all certainly allowed to voice our opinions, though.

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[QUOTE=C3]
Also, I may be missing it, but I didn’t see anywhere where fessie said this technique should be banned.
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Indeed you are. And I respect your opinion, because you didn’t start off with the “shrieking harpy” routine. Recreational outrage, indeed.

Not that I am the paragon of virtue in this regard, mind you, but I generally state my case as to why I am outraged without the “OH NOES!” that this OP has. My reaction to the OP was absolutely every bit as visceral as her reaction to the video, and it has only gotten worse since we entered the feedback loop. So that’s my concession to the moment, and now I’m finished here. I’ll leave it to others to engage in combat with fessie, because right now I’m feeling a bit dirty about it.

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I don’t think fessie or anyone is suggesting that young kids shouldn’t be in the pool. The point is that young kids shouldn’t be in the pool when they are terrified. fessie has provided numerous cites that this training is ineffective for such young kids. Putting them through this sort of test does nothing more than put the kid through a terrifying experience for the piece of mind of the parent.

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[QUOTE=C3]
If you take the training wheels off and he becomes a blubbering mess, shrieking in fear, are you going to give him a good push? Or are you going to calm him down, talk him through it and maybe wait for another day if he’s too upset? This is the difference in techniques I’m talking about. (And from what I’ve read from you in regard to your son, I’m picturing you going with the second option.)
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I agree with this. Biking and swimming are things that kids should enjoy, things they should have fun doing. I mean, as an adult, when you get tired of swimming, you stop. After a while, your arms and legs tire, you get cold, breathing in water gets old…you take a break. I don’t think you should force someone to do things they don’t want to when they aren’t absolutely necessary. Learning to swim is a good thing, but you can do it over a period of time. It’s not quite the same as comparing it to a vaccine, or taking a bath/brushing your teeth, which you have to suck it up and deal with.