Teaching Babies to "Swim" (RO as all get out)

I was speaking to Quint’s apparent shame at us sharing anecdotal evidence in the face of cites. If I find basic data claims (such as children can’t learn basic mobility before 4 and proper strokes until 5.5) demonstrably untrue in the face of quite voluminous personal evidence, I find it hard to buy the conclusions that early swim lessons don’t help prevent drowning. That’s all.

The video was of a swim test, I assume to deliberately put the kid under stress in a “drowning danger” situation and see if the lessons took. I doubt the lessons were that way, you can’t teach anything to a kid that’s freaking out. Finding the test unpleasant to watch does not immediately negate the value of the whole concept of water survival training (or whatever it’s called).

Fessie, I intend you no offense, but I suggest that you not read any statistics about the other causes of children’s deaths. Being informed and taking appropriate measures is one thing. Being fearful and pushy is another. Your cites sound reasonable. You are beginning to sound afraid and frantic. (It’s hard to read tone of voice on these things…)

I loved being in water as a child. I would swim anywhere – lakes and creeks included. Our town didn’t have a swimming pool, but we would drive to another town maybe five or six times during the summer. And there was always a week of camp. That’s where I finally taught myself to swim.

My mother was terribly afraid of water. She would even just run two or three inches of bathwater when she bathed. I never knew her to own a swimsuit. My father didn’t swim either, but he would go fishing in a boat or take me out in a canoe.

My swimming style of just terrible, but sometime in my teens, I finally got up the nerve to swim in the deep end of the pool. When I proudly told my mother, I remember that she screamed. That was the first time that I realized that she could be a really silly woman.

Teaching children these survival skills is dangerous only if the parent makes the assumption that the child is safe on their own. It is clear that they are not. No one is suggesting here that the children not be closely watched or that they be tortured. Your view of the incident seems to be different from most, though not all. You are probably imagining your own sweet twins in that same situation. No one is suggesting that you put them through any misery if your instincts tell you not to.

I’m glad to know that you are playing with them in the water. Sounds to me like these toddlers will not be afraid when they are preschoolers and ready for lessons.

Meanwhile, infants up to a certain age can enjoy those classes at the Red Cross and some children may enjoy float and flip skills if parents plan on never letting the kids out of their sights near water.

Zoe, that video was not a Y or Red Cross-type class.
My claim about the false confidence (and therefore the danger) has to do with that quote from the Dad, about the possibility of his kid falling into the lake this summer w/out her life jacket. A scenario where it’s possible for a kid to fall into the water w/out a life jacket has too much risk built into it from the get-go! The point of drowning prevention is system redundancy (fences, PLUS pool covers, PLUS locks), not “fixing” the child. Because children are unpredictable. Over half of the parents in the drowning study had seriously overrated their child’s swimming ability.

I agree with the experts - I believe that little kids (2-yr-olds, for example) have to be within an arm’s reach when they’re at or near water. I’ve seen my kids get in distress in a flash. This year they were old enough to follow my orders, “STAY WITH ME”, but last summer we couldn’t go to the pool at all unless I had a second adult to help me.
I say that, though, as a landlocked Midwesterner, for whom avoidance and control are options. If you lived on a beach or lake, you’d no doubt have a vastly different relationship with water. I can’t speak to that because I don’t know anything about it. I’ve seen little bitty 'uns who could swim, absolutely. Some of them are VERY much at home in the water. Where they got it, I don’t know.
Can’t find the post right now, but I think you guys made a really valid point about kids sinking silently, I had no idea they could do that. Teaching them to thrash and call out sounds like an excellent idea.
Lightray, I had the same irritation with gymnastics and soccer classes at the Y this summer. The kids who couldn’t stand in line and wait their turn were so disruptive that nothing could be taught. Not that I was expecting them to really learn more than a forward roll, but still it was annoying to have paid $$ to watch their kids run around the room like their asses were on fire.

My kids were OK with following the rules, at least to start - after a couple of weeks they started goofing off too. I think it’s because they’d had a year of preschool already, where they also grew accustomed to listening to their Teacher and doing things without Mommy present. You betcha that was painful at first, but having me there would merely have prolonged the agony.

When the soccer and gymnastics classes were finished, I suggested to the Director of our Y that a “Come Play” class would make more sense as an intro, just give the kids a chance to burn off some steam and be part of some team play, learn to wait their turn, without trying to learn a particular sport or skills. She loved the idea.

At any rate, I don’t think the scenario you describe is specific to water.
outliern, in my mind’s eye it looked like this font that says this (which isn’t precisely what I mentioned):

I could’ve sworn there was more, but I can’t find it right now. Perhaps it was a mental edit on my part. Your question about kids drowning after following a “survival program” hasn’t been answered, as far as I can tell. The cite I gave earlier stated that 24-30% (varies by age) of kids who drowned in the sample year knew how to swim. But in that study no child under 4 knew how to swim.
Wow, Marienee, you weren’t kidding. Apparently there was a World Conference on Drowning, presented in the Netherlands. It would be interesting if that document included posters or presentations from the meeting.

I don’t think that in the real world it matters. I live on a major river and there’s no way my son with all of his swimming medals would ever try and swim across it (he’s 11) and he’s been swimming all of his life under supervision. The reason is because eventually the sea with rips, the river with holes, are dangerous and unpredictable. If you do this sort of “training” with a child and never get out of a swimming pool, maybe it works. However, I find it hard to believe that the child didn’t swallow water in the clip, therefore the look of terror on the kid’s face is understandable. I don’t get why you would terrorise a kid with water and expect them to be okay.

Except that water survival training (or whatever they call it) doesn’t make that child “safe” in the water, because children–no matter how accomplished a swimmer they may be–are not safe.

I think the danger is that this type of “training” just helps to give the parents a false feeling of safety. A way to alleviate that fear that you have that something terrible could happen. As a parent, that fear was my best friend. It kept me from ever becoming complacent or off-guard. My kids all had swimming lessons, but I didn’t ever think that made them “safe” in the water. Tossing them, full clothed and yelping into a pool one day doesn’t make them any “safer” the next day.

I have no expectation of them being “safe” and have made no statement that that’s the case. In fact, I don’t think anyone has except people arguing against it. No one is really safe in water, just like no one is ever really safe driving. All I’m saying is that I’m not convinced it doesn’t help. The cites have not convinced me (for reasons mentioned above), and my experience tends to lean towards it helping. I don’t know. I need more information about these programs. But I’m not going to just blow it off because the test is melodramatic. As far as I know these classes don’t just throw kids in every day to see what happens. The point is to actually teach them what to do should the fall in. I imagine it like “what to do if a stranger touches you,” but with water. I could be wrong, but I’m not dismissing the whole thing because the video looks awful.

Lessons do make parents complacent-- no matter what age the kid is (see below). So do swimmies. So do lifegaurds (I could tell you stories. . .). I don’t think it’s fair to hold parents who can be smart about risks responsible for the ones that can’t.

DellieM when I had water safety tests they were done in a cold and murky lake. My Dad also would do similar things to the video in the ocean (yanking me under and such) so I’d get a feel for being caught in current. I think if you swim only in a pool it can lead to overconfidence in natural bodies of water, which can be much more dangerous. Hell, my Uncle Don, who was an Olympic diver (and former beach gaurd), got caught in a bad riptide and had to be rescued by the gaurd boat. There was a little girl 7-8 years ago who drowned in the ocean by our shore house, because her parents let her go out and swim in the evening after the sun was down. Her parents, who were not locals, kept exclaiming that she was such a good swimmer, they thought she’d be okay. (I was taught going in the ocean after dark is about as good an idea as laying on train tracks)

Fessie, I reviewed all your cites and I note that none of them state that this type of training has been shown to be ineffective. They say things like not proven to be effective, may make parents over confident, long term skill retention hasn’t been studied. The AAP statement in particular reeks of lawyerspeak to me. I noticed that you said that you were unable to watch the whole clip, well I did and they time the kid floating on her back for a full minute. One of your cites states that over 80% of the deaths they reviewed occured with some type of supervision, I think that a minute of floating time could have prevented some of those, maybe a lot. The kid calms down considerably during the test, shes upset, and sputtering, but not terrorized. You haven’t convinced me.

I am a horrible swimmer. I have panic attacks when I go in the water. I have panic attacks when I’m in a boat. If I fall or am thrown in the water, I sink like a stone because of my unbelievable fear and panic. My parents did not teach me to swim or have me in real swim lessons ever. I learned to swim via the route of almost drowning.

Because of my fears, I made sure my kids were taught to swim at a young age and by people who aren’t afraid of water. What good would it do the kids to foist my fears on them? All our kids swim like fish.

That little girl has better water skills right now than I will ever have and I think it’s laudable that her parents are making sure she has these skills given the family’s lifestyle.

Fessie, given that you apparently hadn’t watched this video before you went on your rampage (bolding mine):

Perhaps more of us would be on your side if you had posted the original video that pushed your buttons, rather than this video.

Fair question. I’ve been trying to find it, the clip was posted on YouTube a few months ago. As far as I can tell, either YouTube erased it or the family pulled it (they got a LOT of negative comments). But I’m not done looking.

On the plus side, the other clips I looked at while searching for the one in question aren’t like it at all. The ones I’m finding now are very calm, just a baby gaining confidence in water. The ones where the tykes paddle along are pretty cool.

The one I’m looking for is quite distinctive, it has a title sheet like Haydn’s. It’s a private pool on a sunny day and the baby is pretty small, can’t be more than 18 months old (or is unusually petite). You can hear the parents laughing and applauding just off-camera as an instructor flips and dips a baby who alternates between hysterical crying and righting himself in the water. As soon as he calms down, she dunks him again.

I think there is one key difference between biking and swimming. Your child will never be faced with a “pedal or die” scenario. He’s not going to fall on a bicycle entirely by accident and be forced to ride for his life even if he’s hurt, tired or scared.

That certainly doesn’t mean every child should get this stressful swim test, or even that this sort of test is appropriate for any child. It does, however, provide a certain amount of logic behind a forced swim test that would not work for a forced bicycle test.

[Scott Merritt – Desperate Cosmetics]
Frogs ‘n snakes in ma swimmin’ pool
It was home sweet home, ‘till the algae grew
Life ain’t easy, tryin’ to be a crocodile
[/Scott Merritt – Desperate Cosmetics]

And in truly horrifying news, that kid turned 18 a few weeks ago.

God, I’m old.

I know…I felt like a dinosaur when I heard that. When I was a kid, Rock around the Clock was an “oldie.” Now Smells Like Teen Spirit is. Dang.