That wouldn’t have worked where I live. One of two things would have happened: either (a) the “victim” would have lost, which would have confirmed the bullies’ actions in their minds, or (b) if the victim wins, there would invariably be a “rematch” off of school grounds, and no rules would be involved - especially a “one on one” rule if the bullies are a group.
Here’s some advice the OP should give to his son; whatever you do, do not throw the first punch.
I agree iwth the first part of what you say. However, I think I’d put the second part slightly differently: the key factor in bullying is the inability of the victim to resist effectively. If two kids love scrapping, neither one is a bully.
As a teacher, I certainly understand the desire parents have to tell their kids to fight back. What parents tend to forget, however, is that kids often have terrible judgment about when fighting back is appropriate. Here are some things I’ve heard kids call “bullying” (or even “physical assault”):
-Another kid shadow-boxes at them in line on a single occasion, after shadow-boxing with a third student who was enjoying it.
-They want to play with another kid, and the other kid won’t play the game they want to play.
-They’re playing kickball, and another kid catches the ball and shouts, “OUT! YOU’RE OUT! OUT!”
-A kid cuts in front of them in line.
-A kid sitting near them laughed, and they figured the laughter must have been directed at them, despite no further evidence to suggest they were being laughed at.
and so on.
Now, bullying does really happen, and I at least take it very seriously when it does: I’ve spent long times talking with parents and administrators and specialists and students trying to put an end to it, and coming up with plans that separate bullies from their victims, and so on and so on. But I ask students to come to me if they feel like they or someone else is being bullied rather than resolving it physically because kids don’t always have good judgment.
Certainly it’s not easy to come up with concise definition of bullying. Mutual activity is certainly not bullying. Your examples of non-bullying are good, the term has become diluted. Recently Chris Christie A-NJ (you can figure out what the A stands for) was called a bully for responding rudely to questions and playing hardball politics, hardly bullying, and that kind of thing makes people take it less seriously. As for physical confrontation, it’s a situational thing, and it’s unlikely that the victims will be prepared to decide when or where, or be capable of standing up to bullies, at least without a lot of help and preparation.
I’m dismayed by the lack of assistance from other children in many of these cases. I suppose I got lucky that it was harder for bullies to operate publicly when I went to school. Older kids would stand up for the younger ones, bigger kids for the smaller. I taught my own kids to do that, and gave them advice on when and how to deal with it, and I’m always proud of how they dealt with those situations.
What surprises me is how schools react to bullying now, and when I was in school. There seems to be an attempt to minimize all incidents whether they are true bullying or not. There certainly needs to be some reason applied, but I keep hearing of cases where the problem is swept under the rug. I can’t assess the current situation because I have no exposure to it now that my kids are grown, but I suspect there is a real problem hidden among the imaginary ones.
This is definitely something we talk with kids about. Most bullying requires at least three agents:
-The bully
-The victim
-The bystanders.
If the folks who witness the bullying stand up to it, the bullying gets short-circuited.
Again, however, this can be risky. Too often Cathy will see Alice say something to Brenda and misinterpret it, go to Alice and call her a bully, and then Alice will go to Diana and Eve and cry about how she got called a bully, and Frank and Gertie will go over to comfort Brenda, who positively preens under the attention, never mind that what Alice said to her doesn’t constitute bullying, and pretty soon half the playground is in warring factions over whether Alice really is a bully.
But that’s okay: teaching kids how to navigate these waters is part of the job.
Definitely there’s real bullying out there. In my experience (admittedly limited to a single school), it’s one of the things that most gets teachers’ backs up. We don’t tolerate it. We just have to be careful that kids, seeing us laying the smackdown on someone for bullying, don’t try to manipulate the system by calling in a smackdown on someone who annoyed them.
I couldn’t help but laugh at this. Really, staying quiet, not being a target, not reacting, that does not work. Maybe for some bullies, but not my bullies, or any other bullies I saw. Of course when you go to a teacher or parent they reiterate, “just ignore them, the bullies just want attention” or say “I didn’t see them do anything” - what a fat load of help that is. Trying to be deadpan and emotionless every time I was cornered did absolutely nothing to deter the bullies. They never got tired, they never went away, they never got bored. We really need to move beyond the BS that is “bullies will go away if you ignore them”. That’s why I would advocate for kids throwing a punch now and then.
Maybe if we lived in a world where teachers and parents were actually effective at stopping bullies the above might work, but if they didn’t see it, it didn’t happen at my schools.
I’m one who fought my way through the bullying stage, which was mercifully short for me. I was never popular, or even thought about, but I wasn’t picked on - well, not for long anyway. Probably 4-5 fights - won a few, lost a couple (one badly), but made my point that there are easier targets with all of them.
Those aren’t bullies. Those are just annoying kids. You can’t just beat up every kid who annoys you. Particularly if your son is a football player/hockey player/karate man. If it’s physical bullying, that’s a different story.
When I was that age, I had to put up with my little brother’s annoying friends. What I’m I going to do? Beat up some kids half my size and have their moms complain to my mom? A few years later they will be bugging me to buy them beer.
It’s very clear to me when I see actual bullying. I’m not exactly sure how to describe it. But it’s almost like they settle into comfortable, almost codependent roles of dominator and dominated. Sort of like a learned helplessness.
My vague recollections as a kid was that kids push each other’s buttons to try and jockey for social position. The trick is learning to play the game without coming across as a pussy or a psycho.
Aside from the fact that most PE teachers would probably get fired for organizing such a thing. A bully doesn’t want to fight you. He wants to beat you up with impunity.
Sorry, I must disadvise against this. If the son is currently being bullied, I say “Don’t be seen throwing the first punch”. If son gets hit first, one can never say how it will work out.
If son puts terror into his tormentor, the situation will soon be resolved.
OTOH, I’m wondering, with msmith537, if son may be just being ‘razzed’.
A smart bully (and I’m talking about true bullies, not kids who are merely mouthy little shits) knows exactly where the line is, and knows exactly how not to cross it. Because it’s under the radar, adults are powerless to act because they can’t punish what they can’t see.
I think that a big problem is semantic. We assigned an emotionally loaded word, “bullying”, to describe any behavior from the socially clueless (i.e. the kid doesn’t know it’s inappropriate) all the way to the illegal (e.g. libel/slander that creates real damages or criminal assault and battery). It’s the fallacy of the excluded middle, really, and because some of it isn’t obvious and is usually hard to trace to the origin, it’s difficult, if not impossible, to punish. Even physical bullying can be a situation of “let’s you and him fight”, with the instigator avoiding punishment because no one can prove their involvement.
That said, in the OP’s situation, it’s probably best if the kid learns to tell his annoyers to knock it the fuck off and walk away. A little assertiveness may go a long way.
When I went through training on teaching bullying prevention, I was amazed at how many things we “knew” about bullying that were totally wrong. You just posted one of them. If the bullies in your past experience didn’t go away, it was because they still got some sort of a rise out of you. And believe me, in this day and time, reporting bullying to a school official will get a response, if for no other reason than they are covering their own asses to prevent a potential lawsuit.
I agree “bullying” is a stupid word.
Why not call it what it is? If it’s assault, it’s assault. If it’s harassment, it’s harassment. It’s amazing how demanding adults are, of the police and of the judicial system, when they themselves are the victims. Yet those same adults - who would call the police if they were “bullied” - expect kids to sort it out themselves.
This.