When I was teased, taunted, and beaten up as a child, I remember being told to just ingore it, that they children would lose interest. I was told not to scream when they hit me, and they would stop. I was punished if I raised a hand in defending myself. The other children were not punished when they did things to me, because it takes two to tango. The teachers and other adults said that they could not step in and do something because if they did, I would never learn the social skills that I needed. I just had to sort it all out myself. If I cried, I was just feeling sorry for myself.
From what I gather, many still feel that teachers should not step in. They say that children do need to sort it out themselves. I don’t agree.
“Ignore them and they will stop” has to be the biggest line of BS I was fed as a child. Who came up with that crap in the first place? Do people still say that to kids? I can’t believe how long it took me to figure out that that was a bunch of crap, either.
The thing is, this isn’t how adults would deal with similar behavior coming from their peers. Does the sexual harassment handbook say, “Ignore ‘Bob’s’ uncomfortable sexual advances, because he will eventually tire of it and go away”? Of course not!
“My ex-boyfriend is stalking me!” “Oh, ignore him and he’ll get tired of it eventually.”
“My husband is beating me up.” “Oh, if you don’t give him a reaction, he’ll eventually stop.”
Sure, kids need to be taught social skills to deal with conflicts. Why not actually teach real social skills that actually work? That includes “Go to the authorities if things get out of hand.”
I think that teachers who use the “ignore him” line simply don’t want to bother doing their job.
I think adults should step in and tan the hides of bullies, otherwise they grow up to be adults that still act like that. I remember going for my teaching degree and being at a school as an observer when one student pushed, then tripped another as he was going up the stairs. Knowing that I couldn’t legally do anything, nor was I even an amployee of the school, I felt like I couldn’t do anything. Of course the kid who got tripped looked at me and said “He’s really stupid, isn’t he?” I responded “Yes, he’s very stupid.” the bully was shocked “You can’t say stuff like that!” I answered, “You just tripped him and got him and I both upset, it wasn’t the brightest thing I’ve seen someone do today.” I hope I scarred him for life, for the better that is. Maybe he’ll think a little for a change.
Gee, should we “just ignore” the fact thta the World Trade Center is missing?
As a child I was always the smallest in the class (of the boys that is). I was difficult in sports because you got chosen last. I was not beaten up more like just left out. I learned early that if you develop a skill, people will admire you for that skill especially if you do it better than them. So I learned to run, and ran faster than most of my classmates. Then I was picked for sports near the middle, especially football where running is more important.
At our school (grades k-6) we had several bullies and for lack of a better word several pickees those that were picked on. Most of the pickees were: fat, small, a cowboy (wore cowboy clothes, esp. bib overalls and boots), dumb-acting, wimpy (wore glasses, seemed timid), etc. I qualified on two levels (wore glasses and small), but I guess my running ability stopped the bullies picking on me, but there were others not so fortunate. I grew up in the 40’s-50’s when whupping’s were legal and lavishly applied. I attended a Catholic Parochial School and we had a few nuns who were adept with rulers, baseball bats and fists.
Certainly, teaching children skills in a nurturing environment to handle various situations and types of people, including bullies, should be part and parcel of the education system.
Feel for those of you posting that bear scars from lack of authority figures stepping in. I got picked on a little bit, but learned how to deal with it and figure it didn’t cause irrepairable harm. I’m not saying you were wrong or brought it on yourself or any of that BS, just empathize with you.
I’ve been out of the US for a long time, but isn’t zero tolerance supposed to end some of this? Especially the getting picked on and punished for it, then fighting back and getting punished for it. I thought zero tolerance is to a) stop incidents and b) hopefully only punish the culprit (although the mindless application of zero tolerance may easily punish both the culprit and victim). Actually, that would be a question I have for those victimized, do you think zero tolerance is helpful?
I for one certainly feel that teachers should get involved any time they observe one student physically or verbally assaulting another student. But I don’t suppose this is really a simple issue and not all solutions are viable to all situations.
#1. Ignoring the bully might actually get him off your back. On the other hand it might just encourage him to pick on you more since he knows you won’t retaliate.
#2. Tell the teacher? I don’t know if anyone here remembers but that was about the worst sin to be guilty of according to the the Unoffical Student Code of the School. I don’t remember running to any teachers to tell on a bully but I remember them seeing me crying and checking to see what was wrong.
#3. When I was a kid my parents didn’t teach me to run to the teacher if another kid picked a fight. I was taught that if someone hit me then I should hit them back as hard as I could. I don’t imagine that’s a very popular stance to take these days but I can’t picture myself not teaching my kids the same thing.
#4. Examine why this particular student is being singled out. There were kids I saw growing up who were not athletic, dressed funny, and were downright strange and they weren’t picked on while someone else was. Bullies pick on people for a reason. Though some just pick on anyone they can get away with.
Marc
Since you’ve been out of the states you haven’t had the lovely experience that is zero tolerance. In short ZT is nothing more then a joke. It is a great excuse for administrators to avoid making decisions. Let’s say little Johnny and I get into a fight at school. It doesn’t matter who started it, whether or not we have a history or fighting, or whether or not we’re generally good students. Under ZT policy we will both get whatever punishment the school says and the administrators never have to risk making a decision of their own.
It is not always one bully. In my experience, the children found out that they did not get in trouble for hurting me, so all the other children picked on me.
And if I refused to scream, they decided that bleeding was as good as screaming. They wanted to beat me so bad that blood came out of my mouth like on tv.
Yeah my mom fed me that same line of bullshit too. Fortunately my dad told me he didn’t care if I got in trouble as long as I didn’t start it. Not that I wouldn’t have figured it out for myself anyway. What is a couple days of detention compared to a lifetime of self respect?
Bullies pick targets who are, well, pussies. They look for kids who are unable or unwilling to fight back. I mean really, what kind of person doesn’t defend themselves because they are afraid of getting in trouble?
Maybe kids, such as myself, who learned to respect adult authority and the rules they set forth? Maybe kids, such as myself, who recognized that fighting back doesn’t necessarily lead to self-respect or even ending the problem? Maybe kids such as myself who felt that it was unreasonable for them to bother taking on 3 kids who are all literally twice my weight?
I think it’s a complete fallacy to think that if a kid doesn’t fight back they’re in for a lifetime of feeling worthless. I feel better about myself now for the fact that I didn’t fight back with the bullies or engage them on their level. It would have just brought me more trouble; I recognized that then, and I see it now.
So don’t you try to assert that I’m a “pussy” because I didn’t go and make the situation worse.
If the adults in your life taught you to never raise a hand in your own defense then they did you a disservice.
**
It certainly leads to more bloody lips and more tears. In fact not fighting back certainly leads to a lack of self respect and does not end the problem.
**
Sure beats just sitting there and taking a pounding.
**
I really don’t understand how someone can be proud of the fact that they decided to take a beating instead of fighting back.
I was in the same boat you were as a kid. There were some older kids that would terrorize me and no matter what I’d never fight back because I was afraid. But if your stance was “never fight back no matter what” then yeah that equals a wimp in my book.
Who used that word “never”? I certainly didn’t. I was taught that if a kid punches you in the arm or picks on you it’s not right to hit that kid in the face. Partly because violence usually isn’t a viable solution to that particular problem, and partly because that will just enrage the kid to further escalate the situation. Not all bullying situations are the same. It’s not as if bullies just come up to some kid and completely begin pummeling him. Usually there is some sort of instigating incident from which the situation escalates. Because I followed the advice of the adults in my life to not escalate I saved myself a lot of grief and bruises.
Not fighting back certainly leads to a lack of self respect? Honor doesn’t always come from a fist, and as I said before the bullying I’m referring to is not random massive beatings, it’s the little things that bullies do specifically for the purpose of getting a rise out of other kids. The kids that would always get really pummeled in my school were the ones that would respond to a bully’s action. And as for thinking that not fighting back leads to bloody lips and more tears, I offer you the following example: when in elementary school, one of the bullies was getting on my case about a hat I was wearing; he didn’t like it. He began pushing me and before you know it, the whole schoolyard is circled around us. I never engaged him, I never escalated the situation beyond pushing. And I never got hit once in that fight. Had I “fought back”, the situation would have been much different.
[/quote]
**
Sure beats just sitting there and taking a pounding.**
[/quote]
Who fucking said that I would just sit there and take a pounding? I’d run away and find safety rather than just stand there!
I never took a beating; I always found the pragmatic nonviolent solution. I guess that makes me a wus that I never got angry because somebody else tried to get me to fight them. :rolleyes:
[/quote]
Strawman alert. I never said my stance was “never fight back no matter what”. I said it was try to find a different solution. And I’ll say it again, I’m a better person today for what I did back then. And I don’t regret a thing.
One kid: Picking on me.
Me: Fighting back and getting my ass whupped.
Principal: Punishing me for fighting.
One kid: Picking on me.
Me: Ignoring him because I don’t want to get my ass whupped then punished again.
Other kids: Picking on me because they see I don’t fight back when one kid does it.
Me: Complaining to my mother.
My mother: “Ignore them and they’ll go away.”
Other kids: Picking on me, beating me up.
Me: Ignoring them.
Other kids: Doing it worse to try to get a reaction out of me.
Me: Ignoring them.
Other kids: Getting worse so as to get a reaction.
Me: Complaining to teacher.
Teacher: Punishing me because I must have started it.
EVERY FUCKING DAY for eight years I was beaten up, picked on, you name it. If I didn’t fight back, they’d gain confidence and get worse. If I DID fight back, I’d get in trouble because obviously if I hadn’t fought back there wouldn’t have been any fight at all, so the fight must be MY fault. The adults never stepped in because it wasn’t their duty to do so. Did it wreck my self-esteem? Um, yes. Looking back, can I think of anything I could have done to change it? Um, no.
In short, “leave them be and they’ll go away” might apply in SOME cases, but definitely not all, and in NONE in my personal experience.
Well, FWIW, I was one of the picked on don’t-defend-yourself-because-you’re afraid types. Ignoring it (as I was often advised) did not make it go away. This made childhood difficult. Fortunately, as an adult, I’ve realized the error of my ways. As such, I’m teaching my children something of a 3-step process re. bullying:
Ask the person to stop. Sure, it’s probably not going to work, but you do it to be “in the right”…assuming they don’t stop,
Tell someone in Authority (ie, the teacher). Give the teacher the oppertunity to make it stop, cause (the way I see it) that’s what they’re there for. If this does not work
Defend yourself with all necessary (or possible) force.
If you happen to be in the unfortunate situation where it’s just yourself and the bully(s), then skip immediately to step 3.
Shouldn’t there be a distinction between being teased (name-calling) and being attacked?
I mean, yeah, I plan to teach my kid that if he’s being teased at school, the best thing to do is to ignore the morons. They’ll get bored and find someone else to harass once they realize you won’t dance like a monkey for them.
On the other hand, if one of those clods attacks my kid, I fully expect him to wallop back in self-defensive retaliation. As long as my son doesn’t throw the first punch, I’ll back him all the way.
And that pretty much sums up the United States’ foreign policy vis-a-vis Osama bin Laden in the last five years, it seems. We pretty much ignored him when he was just spewing rhetoric, but now that he’s actually thrown a punch, it’s time to punch back…
Bully psychology is complex. Much of the time they don’t simply beat you up without provocation, but they do often pick on you , harrass you, try to humiliate you in hopes that you’ll lash back so they’ll have an excuse to beat the crap out of you.
Sometimes they’ll come to respect you if you fight back, but sometimes that’ll make you his #1 target from then on. And somtimes “fighting back” consists of little more than attempting to throw 1 punch before he knocks you down and pounds you into oblivion.
The pernicious thing about bullying is that they set it up so you can’t win. They select victims they know they can can beat up. If you fight back, you’ll lose. If you go to the authorities, you’re a squealer or a mama’s boy. If you run away, you’re a chicken.
Exactly my approach with my son. And yes, official school policy is to ignore and not fight back. But I let him know that he won’t be in trouble with me for defending himself. And I’ll back him up with the school, too.
Fortunately, he’s an uncommonly smart one. He had some trouble with a few kids in his class picking on people. (He’s in first grade, BTW). He got a bunch of classmates together in a mutual aid society. They even developed some pretty good group tactics, all on their own. Quite the little squad leader, my boy.
I agree with sqweels and others here - this is a no-win situation. No matter what you do, the bully can find a way to make it backfire on you.
I wasn’t physically bullied much in school, but I was sometimes singled out for harrassment. There seemed to be no recourse - no matter how blatant or obvious the bullying was, no teacher would step in. They’d just look away. This sent me the message (in my teenage mind) that authority was useless - to “go tell someone” was ineffective. Great lesson.
I am yearning for a clarification on M Gibson’s statement here:
I agree, some bullies will pick on anyone they can get away with, but I am not sure what you are driving at by mentioning that some bullies pick on people “for a reason”. How is this relevant? Unless you are suggesting (and I am not sure that you are) that if the picked-on kid “changed”, they’d be less of a target - therefore they are, possibly, partially in control of whether they are picked on or not? I am not sure what your point is here.
