See, that’s just because you’re a wuss. If you were a real man, you’d just dish it out to the next new guy to come along.
You know, someone who won’t fight back.
Payton’s Servant, your little stunt there was stupid and snarky, so don’t get so huffy.
It never fails to amaze me what the sheep mentality will convince people to do. “Hey! You can be one of us if you let us assault, humiliate and verbally abuse you!” Hey, you know what? Get the fuck bent and get out of my face. You’ll be lucky to be walking away with all limbs intact anyway.
[slight hijack]
I know this is probably fucked up, but those are the times when I find great pleasure in being a big, dominating, intimidating girl. Whenever I see a group of jackasses picking on some poor fuck who wants to be accepted, nothing gives me greater pleasure than saying “Oh, what? You want to kick someone’s ass and show how superior you are? Bring it, bitches.”
Is that wrong? I think it probably is. But there’s just something about cowering some arrogant cunt who gets off on picking on those smaller (physically or emotionally or whatever) than her or himself.
[/slight hijack]
All I can really say about the hazing shit is this–if it builds the characters and values of most “fraternity boys” and “sorority girls” that I know, then something ain’t right in Denmark. You want to build team spirit, cooperation and care? Try some fucking team-building exercises then, jackasses. Want to show toughness and physical strength? Run a fucking marathon or go through an outdoors course, assholes. But the whole point? Is that you do it as a team. Not “Oh, we did it before, now it’s your turn!” No, fuckheads! That’s not how you build a fucking team! You build a team by partaking in a constructive activity that everyone puts their effort and cooperation into. Say it with me now, folks. Together. Once more with feeling, please. You do it together. You don’t fucking go all Lord of the Flies on people. And you (collective you) wonder why people roll their eyes and snort at the mention of fraternities and sororoties*. Possibly, at one time, they were about being in a group of people will a mutual care and respect for one another. Now? All I see is a bunch of drunken pigs/sluts who don’t have two spare brain cells to rub together, and who are wasting a college education to boot.
Fuck, I don’t know. I thought college was about finally being an adult with semi-adult responsiblities and sensibilities. Maybe I’ve been wrong all along. Maybe it’s about unleashing the animalistic, savage side of human beings. I’ve always been rather “feh” at the idea of college…if people (and I use the term loosely) like those that take pleasure in hazing others make up the general populace, then I see I’m not missing much.
Fuck hazing and the idiotic people who participate.
*I know that’s a generalization and every generalization has a million exceptions. I also know that the OP in question was about high schoolers, but it seems that hazing is pretty standard in colleges.
You’re goddamn right QueerGeekGirl.
I’m graduating college next week (woo-hoo!) and in my seven years there (yes, sad, isn’t it?) I’ve been approached by a number of sororities wanting me to pledge. I told most of them to shove it. #1. I don’t need to buy my friends #2. I’ll be damned if I’m going to let anyone put me through one once of humiliation, pain and degregation, for the sake of “belonging to the group.” It’s fucking ridiculous. IMHO, you’ve got to have pretty much zero to no self esteem to volunarily put yourself through that, just for a sense of belonging. There are thousands of students on any college campus, are your options for friends that slim that you’d have to put yourself through that to make any?
That’s college. I realize this is high school, and because of that I’m sorry to say it doesn’t suprise me that these girls would volunteer for a hazing. The desire to belong to a certain group is a hell of a lot higher in high school, and your “friend pool” is a hell of a lot smaller. However, I think the hazers should spend a little time in a jail cell, along with their parents (who you know had to be aware of this, and who probably did it themselves in school). However, since someone mentioned that the schools populace is high class (hmph!) and rich, you know these girls can’t possibly recieve any more than a very light slap on the wrist, if anything. From the snippit of that one girl, who obviously showed absolutely no remorse, you can just tell what the outcome of this will be. :mad:
Brutus was the one getting huffy, not me.
And I’d hardly characterize that as a stunt, little or otherwise.
What I thought both sad and hilarious was that a local news station had a segment the day after this story broke where they visited one of the high schools (actually the one I graduated from) to ask about the Powder Puff game and supervision, etc. Because this stuff only happens when you let girls play football (that’s a man’s sport!), not when any group gets out of hand.
It’s a case of me getting irked at reading your stupidity and typing without proof reading. It also turned out to be inaccurate, no baseball BATS (Sorry you were unable to translate that difficult tidbit) were actually used. The girl who received a gash on her head was actually hit by a bucket. Depite Brutus’ insistance that hazing is a good thing, I fail to see how having a scar on her head will help her through life.
Brutus is, of course, under no obligation to respond. But if he would like to make his case as to how hazing is anything but a bunch of childish bullying passed down from one group of mindless conformists to the next group of half-witted, bedwetting pathetic losers, he’s welcome to.
Already did, though apparently not to much satistfaction.
To sum it up:
Hazing is a good thing, assuming that:
-Nobody is injured to an unexpected degree.
-It is completely voluntary on the part of the hazee.
If these either of these points are violated, then the hazing in question is bad. In fact, it is no longer ‘hazing’, and becomes assault. (Or murder or whatever).
But why is hazing a good thing? It reinforces bonds within the group and builds ‘character’ in the hazee (which I know isn’t a real word). It probably goes back to some primitive motivations, making sure all the hunters in your tribe are tough enough to rely upon. Or something like that.
Being hazed means voluntarily accepting hardship. Whether that hardship means the silly-fun hardship I went through when I made the varsity football squad, or the rather more dangerous hardship when I was in the army, it represents the same thing: Dedication to the group. You are saying “Not only do I want to join, I will go through X to do so.”
I am sure catching people as they fall backwards into your arms and shit like that are great ways to wile away a long afternoon, but you are not going to get a team out of it. Shared adversity, on the other hand, does a wonderful job of uniting people.
Well then it seems that we agree that this particular incident was a bad thing. It was not voluntary, in that the Hazeess were lied to about the extend of what would happen to them, and people were injured to an unexpected degree.
But doesn’t the hardships imposed by the training alone constitute a right of passage? “Well you can now run up Death Hill in full gear and not puke, but you won’t be one of us until we beat you senseless with our belts.”
I’m not opposed to silly traditions; “And now the final test, balance this egg on your nose.” But I suspect that many hazing traditions are just masks for sadism and that they tear down bonds, not build them. The hazing in the Russian military has gotten so bad that there have been deaths and desertions (althoug not all desertions can be limited to one factor) are so high that some units are no longer combat effective because of them.
Though they were nothing like the story in the OP, I have been in hazings and you’re talking out your ass.
Ahhh…I too remember the ole Olive Oil Enema from back in my fraternity days. That takes me back. :eek:
Seriously though…alow me to play devils advocate for a moment and defend Brutus’s position. A certain amount of “hazing” (or if you prefer shared hardship) can give people a sense of accomplishment and brotherhood.
-I hated cleaning the fraternity house after a party (technically “hazing” according to the school) but someone has to do it and it gave us something to do together that we could bitch to each other about
-I didn’t care for having to serenade the sororities (guys…couldn’t we pick up golfballs with our ass instead?)
-My freshman hallmate sure looked proud when when he had his ROTC Ranger (or whatever it was) pin “pounded in”.
-Hey…the pledges probably didn’t like “mystery liquid” beer pong but they shouldn’t have thrown eggs at the house during pledging…punk-asses.
There is a certain macho guy-thing that makes a lot of guys say “hey! bring on your shit! I can take it!”
BUT
In all these instances, the individuals know more or less what to expect. They also trust that those “hazing” are not going to abuse that trust and place them in actual physical danger. When hazing goes too far, any sense of brotherhood is replaced by fear, anger and resentment.
Funny thing is, hazing doesn’t stop with high school or college. I once worked at a company that made you spend the day wearing a 18" wall clock like Flava Flav from Public Enemy if you were late. Talk about asanine. Pretty benign as far as “hazing” goes but is it too much to ask to be treated like a professional adult?
The local free weekly that carries the column once ran an article on the problems of fraternity hazing around here. Unfortunately, that article isn’t among the online archives. That article dealt with a hazing that went terribly awry and lead to the death of at least one prospective pledge. If that wasn’t bad enough, the hazing itself wasn’t supposed to happen, it was in violation of the university’s (Maryland, IIRC) charter but those who share the mentality of Brutus let it go on anyway with a wink and a grin.
How many more people need to die before those like Brutus say enough is enough?
I don’t see that as hazing at all, because it has nothing to do with being part of the group or sharing a challenge or any of that. It’s just a really embarrassing punishment for a single person…
and as much as I hate to admit it, I think it’s hilarious. Demeaning and horrible, yes, but I would never be late again and I think it’s probably a very effective way to get people to come in on time, and encourage constant late-comers to fix it or quit.
Hazing also includes singling out individuals for punishment.
It is incredibly inapropriate because you have a situation where management is basically using their position of power to embarrass and humiliate their employees. If you can be forced to wear stupid props, what’s next? Laps around the office? Making you wear a dress (if you are a man) or a dunce cap for the day? Trashing the persons car? Demanding sexual favors?
Hazing or abusing employees until they quit is an incredibly cowardly way of managing. Not to mention that it is a good way to invite a lawsuit (it’s called harassment). If an employee isn’t working out, fire them or do a better job of recruiting.
Having seen clips from the TV all week now, It seems that the number of people actually being hazed was not that many. A dozen or so. Of course, this may have been just one of many pockets. Or maybe the smarter, braver ones said “fuck you!” and left.
I have heard arguements that praise and denounce hazing. There may be some discrepency about what exactly constitutes hazing. My feelings, at least when it comes to the military, are that what happens in boot camp is not hazing. Although the last week they push it I hear. The U.S. military has very strict guidelines to follow. Beatings are not allowed, for example. Granted, if a college fraternity did many similar things as boot camp, it may very well be considered hazing. Blood pinnings. Rubbing shoe polish up the anus. Push-ups over human feces. These are all examples of military hazing that I have seen on TV. The military, once pressured, came down hard on all of these incidents.
After much thought about this incident. I have concluded the biggest dumbasses by far are the stupid fucks who videotapes these events. HOW FUCKING IGNORANT CAN ONE GET? Unless they are secretely taping for the purpose of exposure, these are the biggest morons ever. The filmers of all of the above did not fit into the expose’ camp. They were just stupid fucks who wanted to remember their “wonderful” experience.
A fraternal experience can be a rewarding, bonding experience to some, but if something goes wrong, try explaining to a jury that this is a long standing tradition that cements the fraternal bond. Now add to that a videotape of the event. You will need a very good defense attorney that likely will not be cheap (unless, of course he is a fraternal brother).
I will assume that most in favor as well as those opposed to such traditions will agree who the biggest idiots really are.
Road Rash: Hazing is not permitted at all in Basic Training in the United States Armed Forces. The only things approaching hazing that’re permitted are the Shellback ceremony and the Chief’s initiation.
Thanks Monty. I wanted that kind of confirmation. The other incidents that occured were on 20/20 some years ago. They involved the color guard, and some air force corps. The military did indeed punish those involved. Which once again begs the question; how big of a dumbass does one need to be to actually tape these things?
According to “The Daily Show” (hey, it’s news…kinda) the guy that video taped it #1. obviously did nothing to help the girls, even after it was obvious it was completely out of hand #2. Charged TV stations to air it.
If that’s true, the video taper is the biggest asshole of them all…IMHO
It was on the news for the second morning in a row. One of the girls who got suspended for the hazing is suing the school for humiliating her, if I recall correctly. Another girl’s considering doing so. So, let me get this straight: injuring people = humiliating others = just clean fun; suffering the consequences of injuring people = being humiliated = lawsuit. :rolleyes: Also, on last night’s news, some of the kids who videotaped the whole affair are trying to sell those videotapes to the news media.
Beam me up Scotty! There’s no intelligent life down here.
CJ
(formerly cjhoworth)
Well, after reading through this thread I’m pretty damn glad I live in the UK, never heard of anything like this over here, never even heard the word before today.
Brutus, if you’re saying that hazing is the best way to feel part of a team, then I have to say I disagree. Surely the fact that not everyone partakes in similar rituals, yet end up perfectly well balanced individuals suggests that there are other, equally effective team building exercises. If you’re not, I can’t comment, as I’ve never experienced it myself.