Define what you mean by intangible. If you mean something that can’t be seen, felt, measured in any way, or have any effect on us or our world in any way, then I don’t believe in intangible things. But if it can have any effect, then the effect will be verifiable, even if the cause isn’t. I’ll certainly believe in an effect that can be demonstrated, whether or not we know the cause. But so far, there has never been any reliably produced evidence of an effect, let alone a cause.
If it can only be done in an uncontrolled environment, then the people who had the experience can’t be sure what happened. That’s sort of the definition of uncontrolled. Things happen we don’t expect, don’t know about, or can’t control. So while you may think you know exactly what happened in an uncontrolled setting, you can’t be sure. And this is not a dig at you or others who have had experiences. None of us could be sure.
That’s why when an apparent phenomena goes away under controlled conditions, the obvious answer is not that the phenomena is shy, but rather that something else was causing the whatever the effect was.
This doesn’t completely rule out shy phenomena, but when lots of testing fails to reveal anything, and when the proposed phenomena runs counter to current theories that have survived lots of testing, the odds against the shy phenomena get very, very high.
And at that point science gets (quite reasonably, I think) tired of playing with it, and will pretty much dismiss it until something extraordinary comes along.
OMG there have been 6 or 7 posts since my last post. I tried to read them all, and plan to respond to each but I work from 8:00 a.m. until 7:30 each day and don’t always have access to a PC during those hours. So bear with me 'cause I have to sleep sometime.
All I have time for right now is to say that if I came across the wrong way, I truly apologize. I love this place, and I respect all of you. I guess it’s harder than I thought to express one’s true sentiment with the written word!
And no, I’m not a Troll, a dumb-ass maybe, and not a very good writer, but not a Troll.
When I get to work this morning, I’ll write out my experience for you all to read and tell me what you think. And, again, I apologize for the delay.
My pointy, such as it was, was that I have personally and with consistent reliability, given certain circumstances, experienced a phenomenon equivalent to what is described as “telepathy” – and that it had little or nothing to do with supposed psychic powers, but rather with an ability on the part of two highly intelligent men to integrate known response data to extrapolate what a response will be on a 99%+ consistency basis. The wrong turn long distance isntance should have made the point clear.
I don’t know that “true psychic telepathy” doesn’t exist – but I’ve never seen or heard of an instance where it has been done reliably. Hence I’m agnostic to “soft atheist” about it.
My opinion, based on my own experience, is that instances of telepathy are in the following three categories:
[ul][li]Self delusion[/li][li]Coincidence[/li][li]Mutualistic insight of the sort I’ve described. Since many people operate on an “intuitive” (io.e., subconscious) lvel to a far greater degree than Chris and I, I suspect that cases of “telepathy” not explained by the previous two points are generally people doing that sort of real-time analysis and prediction of response inmtuitively, without conscious ratiocination about the alleged “mind reading.”[/ul][/li] Dr Matrix had it right!
It’s possible there are intangible things and it’s perfectly reasonable (according to physics) to believe in them. I’m referring to the possible existence of parallel universes. The only tangible things that come from parallel universes are “shadow” light photons that seem to interact with “real” photons under experimental conditions.
If parallel universes exist then there are whole intangible universes out there. Thus it is a perfectly rational scientific position to hold to believe in intangible things.
Actually that’s not quite right. While it is true that nothing in current physics forbids the existence of parallel universes, coexistent universes, bubble universes or any of the other multiple universe speculations out there, there is absolutely nothing that compels their existence, either. Since these “other” universes cannot be observed, and therefore cannot affect our universe in any way, they can be effectively said not to exist. Believing that they might exist is one thing, after all, theory doesn’t prohibit it. Believing that they do, however, is irrational since there never can be any evidence that that is the case or not.
Apart from the fact that their photons bounce off ours and ours bounce off theirs. So they do affect our universe.
Um, no they can’t.
I kinda agree with this but we’d need to get into a deep discussion about the nature of belief. Yes, the proper scientific position to hold is that parallel universes might exist but then what position should one hold if one thinks the evidence for parallel universes is stronger than the evidence against?
Why not? If a purported parallel universe has zero effect out our universe, and we cannot observe it, why cannot we say it does not exist?
I say there is a big, invisble purple elephant in your living room that you cannot see, hear, smell, feel, taste or detect in anyway whatsoever. Why can you not say it does not exist?
Here my take on the whole issue.
Telepathy as it is defined is currently impossible. Humans are unable to send or recieve messages through paranormal means in consistant controlled enviroments.
Advanced empathy as Polycarp describes is possible, but not a dead on science. You can figure out what someone is thinking, but you can’t know they are thinking it. In Polycarp’s story he had experience and contact with his friend, and thus was able to make an accurate judgement on how his friend would react in a certain situation. You’ve probably done it to. Ever hear some news about someone and say to yourself, “Wait till Mom hears about this!”. You don’t know how your Mother will react, but based on past experience you can assume what her reaction will be. The same thing happens with close friends or realitives. I remember my brother once pushed a shopping cart in front of a parked car because he knew I would move it out of the cars way. He didn’t read my mind, he just accurately judged my reaction to the situation. I think with some time and practice you could probably communicate certain things with someone close to you without using words. Think of the look your girlfriend gives, and you instantly know shes pissed because you forgot something. Its not exactly telepathy, but its good as is possible.
But your “exception” is not an exception to what I said. I said:
If the shadow photons interact with the real photons in our universe, this is a tangible effect on our world even if the rest of that universe remains forever outside our ken.
I’m perfectly willing to believe in tangible things even if the cause or mechanism is currently unknown, or possibly even unknowable. But there must be some effect, or we might as well just start making stuff up out of whole cloth and expect people to take out word for it.
And this is the biggest problem I have with the believers in the paranormal. All too often they seem to get the cart before the horse by spending lots of time speculating on causes before they nail down whether or not there actually is any effect.
Speculate on causes all you like, but if there is never any real effect on something I have a hard time getting jazzed about it. Aside from the fun factor in speculation, that is.
Riddle me this. Does “reliably, given certain circumstances” really mean “it works all the time, except for when it doesn’t?”
Self flattery will get you nowhere.
Now your backpedaling. In your first post you actually made the claim that you were communicating by mind power at a distance, see:
I think the first two cover most of the insight you described. The latter is nothing more than hanging out with people who think similarly to you, no doy they can frequently guess what you’re thinking. However, to say you or they are reading minds or communicating by mind power long distance, as you claimed in your first post, is pure hogwash.
My problem with telepathy. The late J.B. Rhine believed that telepathy existed…he also believd that “precognition”, “ESP”, and “psycho-kiesis” (the proported ability to move physical objects by the mind) existed. His “proof” was a series of poorly-designed, error prone tests , mostly done in the 1930’s!
If there were anything to this, something more would have been done in the past 60 years! The implications of human telepathy are so vast that people should be doing all kinds of research on it-the fact is, there is little or NO research going on…which leads me to suspect that the whole thing is a fake.
Suppose you did have what you beliebved to be a telepathic communication-how would you ever verify it?
No research? I guess you’ve never heard of parapsychology then. Check out the Consciousness Research Laboratory or the American Society for Psychical Research. Now whether this research has produced results or not is highly debatable; however, the research definitely exists. The reason there isn’t more research is because everyone else already believes telepathy is a fake, therefore it isn’t worth researching. It’s a Catch-22.
