Tell me about fifth wheels

In My Humble Opinion
1

Mrs. L and I hope to take a break from work sometime in the next few years. If all goes to plan we’ll get a truck, pull a trailer and explore. I was thinking about a camper, maybe 20 feet long and connecting at the bumper…we could get a hard, locking cover for the truck bed and securely store things there if needed.

Searching SDMB an earlier thread touched on an issue I’ve since discovered while reading up elsewhere: trailer sway, which looks like the tail wagging the dog due to improper weight distribution, poor choice of tow vehicle (?), bad driving, etc.

https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physics-of-trailer-sway/

Man, you can find some terrifying footage on youtube. Mrs. L looked at some of these and announced we would be getting a fifth wheel. There’s some NSFW language in the video (people swearing about crashes) so mute if needed. What was the line in “Apollo 13” about putting Sir Isaac Newton in the driver’s seat?

Watching other videos, one guy said you can hit a switch for the trailer brakes from the cab of the truck (but do not tap the truck brakes) in you have it set up that way to stop sway. Another said you can attach anti-sway bars at the bumper as part of your set up—he was towing a long Airstream, something like these:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=weight+distribution+hitch+sway&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI87rk0L2o7QIVCkqGCh1w6AurEAAYASAAEgJp-_D_BwE&hvadid=323395494617&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9026941&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=b&hvrand=11210569334003497859&hvtargid=kwd-295436953426&hydadcr=18948_10719066&tag=googhydr-20&ref=pd_sl_4auou7imbm_b

Airstream guy claimed he’d never had a problem.

But I guess the best defense against it is just getting a fifth wheel? We don’t want a huge trailer so it seems like overkill but maybe.

  1. How do you get one? Go to the dealer, buy your truck…and get one installed at the dealer? Or do the manufacturers ship them from the factory like that? Or are they installed aftermarket? Are they all basically the same? In one video it looked like the truck bed was pre-drilled and they bolted it in somehow…so I guess you can remove them when you aren’t using them?

  2. From what I read, the longer your truck bed the better as far as range of motion when turning the rig (so the trailer doesn’t hit the cab in a sharp turn basically). Are there guidelines for that per trailer or per truck or is it by guess and by golly?

  3. I hear fifth wheels are much easier to drive than bumper pulls. Are they easier to back into a space, for instance? You don’t have to swing as wide to make turns? Mrs. L thinks we need to find a school to teach us how to handle one.

We aren’t truck people and I was telling her that a four door F150 starts at something like $36K, which surprised her. I did a build and price and quickly it rose about $50K. She said maybe we could get one at an end of year sale. I was looking and yes, they do discount them. The problem I anticipate, however, is that not just any truck will tow as needed. One ad says,

The Maximum Trailer Tow package is available on the 3.5L engine and comes with an electronically locking rear axle, larger 36-gallon tank, a class IV hitch receiver, a Smart connector, a trailer brake control, front stabilizer bar, and a hitch lamp for easier viewing at night. This package combined with 20” tires raises the maximum capacity from 12,100 to 13,200 lbs.

In other words the truck may have the horse power but aren’t there other considerations that better be baked into it when it was built?

I was thinking maybe a Ford Ranger instead…easier to drive around town after unhitching, maybe better gas mileage…it seemed worth at least researching. One of the trailers we like is about 5000 lbs empty, has a max loaded weight of 7600 lbs (GVWR) and the Ranger supposedly can tow 7500 max so that looks possible. A friend was saying that really, the F150 isn’t going to be that much more and it’ll be worth paying the extra.

Thoughts about any of this?

I don’t remember NSFW language in here but it’s possible so be advised. Quite a crash at about 5:20…

2

I’m far from an expert but I’ve got lots of friends that tow boats and trailers. I’ve been caught by trailer sway once towing a load of railroad ties that were slightly off center. I was able to just slow down and regain controll but it was still freaky.

I’m general if you’re going to be doing a lot of towing you should be getting a vehicle meant for it. I’d start looking at a half ton truck like an F250 or Ram 2500 and you’ll definitely want a diesel engine. Rather than driving that beast on your day excursions you may want to look into towing a wrangler or other light vehicle.

One last thing is you don’t want to be anywhere near your towing max. Generally, the recommendation is 80% of max payload so that Ranger should only be towing 6,000 pounds. If you’re getting a new vehicle you can add a bed hitch as an option for a ram 2500 (which has 19k towing) the 20k 5th wheel hitch is a $1,075 option with another $1000 for the rest of the towing package the bottom of the line with a diesel and the towing package will run you $50k. Its also worth cautioning you that these bug trucks drive a lot rougher than you think if you haven’t driven one before particularly when they are unloaded. For a vehicle you are going to spend a bunch of time in I wouldn’t but the bottom end model and would expect $70k for the vehicle

One last thing I would suggest you buy a slightly used trailer. A lot of people get into the hobby and after a couple of trips realize that they aren’t going as much as they dreamed. There is a ton of depreciation and you can pick up a 3-5 year old airstream for $20-30k in good shape. You could take that money and buy a nicer truck. I’d budget $100k between the truck and trailer so you may want to rent for a weekend or week before you commit to buying. I just had a friend rent a truck and airstream for a week and I believe he spent close to $10k.

3

I tow a 27’ RV that weighs less than 7000 lbs with a Ram 1500 that is rated for 8900 lbs. I have load levelers and an anti-sway device. I have pulled many trailers thousands of miles and never had one get out of control. Someone did get out of control passing me once, but he got it back. It happens, but if you are correctly set up, obey speed limits and use your head, you’ll be fine. I have never pulled a 5th wheel. My truck was a leftover '16 a trim line higher than I was shopping for, purchased in January of '17 and came with gobs of discounts that put it at about 40K. I would have preferred a heavier tow rating, but my trailer is well within the spec for that truck.

There is a lot to know, and most of us have learned by making mistakes and looking foolish a time or three, but other campers in the parks are a wealth of information. I would also suggest you find a group, Facebook or otherwise that specializes in RV towing and listen and learn. Good luck.

4

A light truck like a Ford Ranger, will get you pushed around by the inertia of the trailer, in exactly the way that you don’t want. The trailer will have a mind of it’s own.

You want more truck up front. At least a F150 with a towing and hauling package. Or other brand with similar capabilities.

5

Lots of good advice in this thread. You very much want to match towing vehicle to trailer.
I towed a 20ft cargo trailer with a Chevy Savanah van once, I’ll never do that again.

One thing to consider, fuel mileage. A fifth-wheel trailer typically sits a lot higher in the front and that flat(ish) front face of the trailer is a pretty effective airbrake just riding along above your truck. You can mitigate this some with an air foil on the top of the truck, but it’s still there.

Have you ever bumper towed anything? I ask because bumper towing and semi towing feel and handle very differently. If you’ve never towed anything at all then find someone to hands on teach you the basics first.

As to which is easier, neither. Beyond the basic principles of towing and backing a trailer the handling is too different.

6

Thanks for all the replies!

FTR Mrs. L and I have owned a 21’ long campervan for 5+ years and the first year, we took 17 trips in it. It’s based on a Ford E350, has gas V10 that will probably run till the stars burn out and it weighs 11,000 lbs or so. My favorite part: it’s a dually, so the grip on the road is great. It’s got pretty good acceleration and braking, a good vehicle if all you’ve ever driven is typical cars, vans, etc.

We really liked taking trips in it because we always have to work Monday; it’s great for going…nothing to hook to the bumper, etc. just self-contained. On the other hand it’s not as great for staying. But if we’re retired we’d like a dedicated bed, not having to unplug and put everything away so we can drive the rig into town, etc. (then having to set it all up again when returning to the campground).

@Oredigger77 I think your advice is good about making sure we like it. The issue would probably be driving/towing, not so much the other camping/traveling aspects

@MemoryDump, so the anti sway stuff is working for you…I wonder why it isn’t standard equpiment. Good idea about FB, hadn’t considered it.

Found the video, for anybody interested: at 7:45

@Dallas_Jones I only recently noticed that the Ranger model returned. To my eye they look big—a quick google of curb weight reveals: 3,922 to 4,441 lbs. Googling for 1990 Ford Ranger: 3464 lbs. I think the F150 tops out at 5000 or so.

With many of these my brain isn’t grasping the physics. In that first video at about 2:50 the guy seems to have an empty trailer—no high center of gravity, nothing for wind to get hold of, a trailer that probably isn’t heavier than his vehicle. I guess there could be other factors, like a tire blowout, vehicle wheelbase, driver overcorrection…

That video again

A very long time ago I towed my car behind a U Haul. It had the two wheels up on a dolly while the rear wheels rolled on the pavement. That was nerve wracking. People would sit in my blind spot, pass me and hit the brakes, etc.

7

I tow a 20’ ultra light. It has fold out tent beds so I get a lot more room for the length. I’ve never had an issue pulling it with my Tundra. I do have an anti-sway hitch but I don’t know if it actively “does” anything. Someone can correct me, but I think it just limits the sway and buys you some time to get slowed down.

My Dad had a 5th wheel. He had to have a 3/4 ton truck to pull it, which he didn’t need the other 340 days a year. The hitches are heavy, you don’t just pop them in and out without some type of lift. I could horse it around in my 30s but he was in his 60’s. You do get a lot more room in a 5th wheel.

8

That’s the world of big truck driving and trailer towing. That’s also why a lot of rv drivers and towers drive a bit below the speed limit. So people will pass them instead of camping out where they shouldn’t.
You get used to it and learn to compensate.
You do bring up a good point though. Mirrors. You won’t have a direct rear view mirror while towing. My boss has a newish 2019 Ford f250 with all the bells and whistles. The mirrors extend out, waaay out in a way that’s very nice for towing. There’s a switch in the cab for doing this. If you’re considering doing this for extended periods, I’d council not skimping on the truck. Get the biggest motor, most comfortable seats, and as many bells and whistles as you can afford. The truth is that while rving, you’ll spend as many or more hours in the cab as you will in the rv

9

Right, that’s been my attitude…do I have to go so big?

That’s the beauty of retirement. I told L-girl that we should sell this place, then NOT buy anything right away. Home? The road is home till we buy another house.

To illustrate, suppose Mrs. L and I roll into a place outside San Diego on day 1. We check in at the campground. We level the rv, set up hoses, plug in, etc. Then we drive the truck to get groceries, come back. Maybe we have a glass of wine by the fire ring or maybe we relax and go to bed early, catch up on some emails, read a book, whatever. In the coming 2-3 weeks we go see San Diego’s famous zoo, get some fresh seafood, see Balboa Park, check out the naval shipyard, do whatever things appeal to us. Then we haul stakes. Next stop? We head north toward Los Angeles. LA is 120 miles, less than 2 hours away. So if I have to drive that much every two weeks…? Not bad! My commute to work right now is three times that.

Maybe the drive is along a coast, a sightseeing event unto itself. Stop a couple weeks. Then toward San Francisco, Napa Valley, etc. We’d stay in less populated areas but be able to access the attractions. Maybe we continue that path till we reach Seattle. Or maybe we turn east. We don’t zigzag, backtrack, or otherwise deviate without good reason.

These two have lots of videos and solutions, like how to get your mail or what expenses to expect if you “full time.”

They seem genuine.

How much they say it costs to start

Their one year budget

I take it all with a grain of salt of course, but I suspect it’s cheaper than you think. The big surprise in their budget?

$6686 per year for internet; description begins at about 10:00. They’re a business but traveling, coverage changes etc. And they’re figuring it out as they go.

Of course there are lots of opinions.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Cost+of+rving+full+time

10

I’m surprised. Doesn’t everybody use rear-view cameras now? (For driving, not just for reversing).

11

I hope it’s OK for me to ask a trio of related, but merely curious questions in this thread…

Looking at the crash videos, there was a very consistent pattern showing a sort of resonant feedback in the swaying of the trailer. my questions:

  • How much of this feedback is the result of involuntary reaction by the driver (e.g. trying to compensate, but wrong) vs a simple physics outcome of the configuration?
  • At what point in these incidents is recovery impossible - what’s the point of no return, where a crash becomes inevitable?
  • Is there some action that drivers never do, that they should do (or that they do the opposite of)? - it seemed almost like some of them tried to accelerate out of the oscillation, but I suppose that could be just the way it looks from the camera vehicle.
12

I’ve watched several hours of these videos. One common scenario is that the driver seems to jerk the wheel. Like they’ll pass someone and to change lanes they crank the wheel rather than slowly and smoothly transitioning. That effect seems to magnify as you move back to the towed vehicle.

I’ve read that accelerating can help. But IIRC it should happen quickly if it is to work. Trailer brakes are more likely to work.

Interesting video: the weight should be distributed forward (or at least equally) in what you’re towing. If you pull an RV, put the bowling balls in the front.

13

That’s great you’ve got experience on the camping side. Based on your plan I would recommend a Class A RV with a tow behind vehicle. I’ve had several friends that have had them over the years and they love not having to drive the beast of a truck everywhere while getting a more comfortable trailer. Maybe do three weekends and rent a 5th wheel set up, a tow behind set up and the RV set up. That way you can experience all three.

14

A co-worker has a fifth wheel. I think it’s forty feet long and he has a dualie pickup to tow it (meaning a pickup truck with four rear wheels). It’s had hydraulic issues, so it’s been in the shop for several months this year and, he said, 16 months in total since he got it in 2015.

(Personally, it seems ridiculous to me to tie up that much money in the thing and have a giant pickup truck just to move it around, but he seems to like it. When it’s working properly.)

15

While there’s certainly a factual aspect to the question, I think you may get more varied and generally more useful results in IMHO. So I’m moving the thread.

16

Most of the people I know start collecting other things for the giant truck to pull. so they get an trailer, then a boat, then snowmobiles and of course all of the endless construction projects and friends looking to haul things.

17

Sounds about right. I don’t want to do anything but RV, and I’m not keen to tow anything super long…we want a big enough bed, appliances, shower, couch, etc. But anything massive would be overkill.

I was checking out the Class A option. Given what a loaded truck costs, some of them might work for us. Mrs. L is skeptical, thinking it would be a “uni tasker” and we’d get more use out of a truck.

Interesting—wonder if this would have saved some of the vehicles that crashed:

18

Loading the trailer front-heavy, and distributing the weight evenly onto all four wheels, makes it harder for the trailer to swing the front or back wheels – which is, ultimately, what causes the crash.

The driver should be keeping the front wheels pointing in the direction of motion, as when skidding on snow or ice. Actually, in the direction of motion of what the the trailer will do next, which is even harder. I couldn’t do that – I have no experience with snow, ice, or trailers.

If the car is slowing down (as it might be, just from having the wheels go sideways), the energy and momentum of the trailer is available to push the car sideways. If that causes the towing vehicle to slow down more, you have an inherently unstable situation.

19

Have you considered adding a very small car on a trailer then? rather than a largish truck and caravan package this may work better for you (and a car on a trailer is much less prone to sway than than a caravan)

the other thing we see pretty regularly here is a special hitch for towing cars behind an RV - some sort of A-Frame that hooks to the RV towbar (negates the need for a car transporter)

20

We decided to consign our class B. We enjoyed it but it’s cramped…dealing with that jack knife sofa etc. is just not a good “full-time” solution. I drove 95% of the miles we covered because she was skittish; I think if I’d pressed her more she would have driven more and grown more comfortable. In other words I think what she’s comfortable driving may win the day.

When the van part of our camper broke, into the garage it went. When an RV part broke, into the garage it went. Having separate components would be appealing so if something breaks, you don’t lose the whole thing, so to speak. Plus, we might keep the RV as a she shed…or we might later let it go. We might get a lot of use out of a truck, or it might be more trouble than it’s worth.