WOW… love the Paperbackwriter. I have been a member of Skeptic for years. Critical thinking is obviously way out of most peoples’ mind. A simple “prove it” with double blind tests or medical knowhow is beyond most people’s thinking.
But what I did find hilarious was the box of advertisments!!! for you guessed it…Moringa powder and zija’a LOL LOL I know the ads are computer generated to correspond to substance in article but really guys??? get a grip
First of all MODERATER… I did not NAME CALL! I did not call the poster a DOUCHE! I actually did the opposite! I instructed him not to be one!
Anyway… Paperback, I do appreciate the intelligence that you displayed! And I am thick headed and want to try it! So I will! I will keep you posted when I get to the Cape Wearing Stage… lol!
For the rest of you that log on to a site like this just to post smart ellic comments and look for a place to act like Wise Crackers! (did not name call… mearly said people act like wise crackers)… go back to “MySpace” where the other lower intelligent life forms post their banter! Again did not call anyone names, I stated that lower intelligent people hang out on MySpace! I would like to quote a disney film if it doesn’t violate the user agreement! “If the showe fits, wear it”
It’s threads like this that makes me think I should get out of the pharmaceutical game and into snake-oil herbal supplements instead. There’s no pesky FDA to satisfy, no need to show actual efficacy, and your customers actually try to sell their friends and family on it.
We haven’t had A Very Special Thread in ages. It’s not quite up to par as the Black European Nobility Guy or Cow Muties Girl but it’s still memorable.
No kidding. As soon as I get my PhD, I’m totally selling out.
I fee like it’s an okay time to pull this one out:
Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm.
Lisa: That’s spacious reasoning, Dad.
Homer: Thank you, dear.
Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
Homer: Oh, how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn’t work.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: It’s just a stupid rock.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: But I don’t see any tigers around, do you?
Homer: Lisa, I’d like to buy your rock.
Before I begin I must quickly say that, while I do enjoy reading about medicine and biology, I am by no means an expert in any related field. I am a writer and an artist who studies psychology, and I will not pretend to know any more about nutrition than the average person. I ask that you please forgive my ignorance or any moments of density.
Alright then. Now that my safeguard is in place, let me begin the story of my experiences. Forgive how long-winded I am - if it bothers you feel free to scroll down to where the links are. Anyway, to put it bluntly, Halloween was not kind to my waist. My family doctor, not pleased by this, gave both me and my mother (we had simultaneous appointments) each a trial package of Zija. As I recall he commented that one patient of his who had been taking it for awhile dropped a pant size.
Mom and I took it home. We drank the drink mix fifteen minutes before breakfast, took the capsules three hours later, and… unlike my mom, I completely forgot to take the tea. Contrary to other claims, I don’t think the drink mix tastes bad. Not good, but not bad. As one person stated earlier in this thread, it’s kind of like weak herbal tea. Anyway, neither of us had any idea what this stuff was purportedly supposed to do beyond appetite suppression and weight control.
Now, I must say this quickly. I trust my current family doctor. In the past I have had many bad experiences with so-called doctors who thought they knew how to practice medicine, one of which whom nearly killed my mother with one of his stupid mistakes, but this one seems to be a very intelligent and very educated man. I know. Given the current subject I stake a lot on that claim. What’s more, he’s also very pleasant, unlike some of your doctors with their holier-than-thou attitudes. Basically, I have a lot of respect for him.
Let’s continue. A few days later, the trial packs run out. We return to see my doctor. We’re weighed on a special scale they have that measures BMI, water weight, etc. My mother lost four pounds. I lost barely one. Instead of seeing my doctor, we see the nurse practitioner. When asked how we felt, my mother says that it helped in suppressing her appetite and that she felt more energized. I didn’t pay attention to how I had felt. If there was a difference in my appetite and energy level at all, my ADHD laden brain didn’t notice it. That’s a funny statement actually. But I’ll get to why in a sec.
We’re asked about continuing to take it. They explain they have month-supply packages of the drink mix, capsules and tea in the office, but that they cost $200. I cringe. One of the nurses explains she’s been taking it for a month now and has noticed improvements in her weight, and that it can take a couple of weeks for some people to begin seeing results. Insert a debate between me and my mom, and in the end the decision is made to buy them. The nurse later comes back and explains that the following night there will be a seminar on Zija at the local convention center. I push that we should go.
The seminar began with a few testimonials. People claimed they lost weight, felt they had more energy, had better concentration, that it helped with pain and arthritis, and even helped with eyesight, yadda yadda. A few whiffs of pyramid scheme wafted by as the announcer went on about marketing the product. Then entered Russ Bianchi, the biochemist for Zija. After going on about how he was basically some child prodigy and being a neuro surgeon, he went onto how he came to be involved in the company. How he was apparently unwilling at first, but after doing his research on the moringa oleifera, he got involved. Anyway, he went on about the struggle and failure he went through trying to formulate this product.
Then, and my memory is woefully fuzzy for such an important detail, he went into something about this woman with sick or malnourished kids and how she was giving them sugar pills as placebos because she literally had nothing else for them. I really, really wish I could remember the details better, but trust me, the context was just as ridiculous. She apparently went to some witch doctor who instructed her to take the raw plant, grind it into powder, and give it with water. Bianchi then started rambling something about a 100% success rate and, ugh, it kills me that I can’t remember this all clearly. Maybe the strength of the alarm bells had jarred me senseless, lawl.
It’s also worth noting that when he got to the oil and skin creams, he showed a photo of a woman who was supposedly bitten on the face by a black widow, had a hole in her cheek that you could shine a light and see in her mouth and was facing all sorts of surgery to fix it. Within I believe he said it was two weeks, by doing nothing by apply the oil, the wound was barely noticeable. Wow. Okay, ignoring the deafening snake-oil sirens in my head, I know my spiders. Black widows produce a neurotoxic venom, as in it attacks the nervous system, and that was clearly a necrotized wound. To add insult to injury, my MOM had been bitten by a black widow once, and her description was exactly as I’ve read it to be - two small dots. Now, if the guy had said brown recluse I might have bought it.
I’m sure the folks defending this product would call that such an insignificant detail that it’s splitting hairs - but it’s not. This is about health. This is about lives and what people do with their bodies. Those who are serious and skeptical are going to research this. Spider bites can be a serious health issue, and a misdiagnosis like that can, literally, mean the difference between life and death. The implication I get is that if you get bit, or if you have a serious gash or whatever, don’t worry about seeing a doctor! Who needs stitches and surgery! Just apply this wonderful miracle oil! Look, bucko, get your facts straight in your pitch or you’re gonna look foolish. If they got THAT detail wrong, what other ‘facts’ were wrong in that pitch?
Among some of his other claims, he said that the plastic bottled water uses releases toxins that we end up drinking (which I’ve heard before but haven’t looked into), that microwaving water creates hydrogen peroxide (which I’ve been googling for amid my Zija research), that basically all food we eat no longer has the same nutritional value as it did some decades ago, and that high fructose corn syrup has a foreign molecule not found in nature in it that’s responsible for obesity, depression and all sorts of other lovely things because our bodies can’t recognize it. Oh, and no one is born with a predisposition for disease. That all has to do with the stuff in the food we eat. Is any of that true? I don’t know. This is one man’s word trying to pitch a product that sounds outrageous, and like I said, I’m not going to pretend to know more than I actually do. Any further enlightenment on any of these subjects would be appreciated.
Finally we reached the Q&A, which is something of a blur to me due to my spotty memory. I remember someone asked about allergies, and another asked about who can take it (he said ‘fetuses in their mother’s womb can take it, women who’re breastfeeding can take it, and centurions can take it’), etc. Finally I raised my hand. I suffer from severe ADHD and memory problems, and the people who claimed this helped their concentration piqued my interest. So I brought that up, and I asked him what known neurological benefits there were. I started to explain my reason for the question, and he cut me off and started to make assumptions of what I meant. I forget what his exact words were, but basically the meaning was, “It could help, but I really don’t know.” This guy was a neuro surgeon? Before he could move onto the next person, I was bound and determined to finish my sentence, so I threw him my doozy - “What about tourette syndrome?”. I was sitting next to the aisle in the second row, and I know he had to have seen me ticing my hands and jaw throughout the seminar because he looked at me several times. While I forget his response, I could see that had momentarily stumped him. He asked me to see him once the presentation was finished.
When the presentation finished, we went over to the table where the products were set up, and a line formed to further speak with Bianchi. Mom spoke to a woman about their marketing services and how the business could be as big or small as we wanted it and yadda yadda. I only half listened. It was clearly a pyramid scheme and I didn’t care. Then, despite the longass line, the woman let me cut to the front so I could speak to Bianchi. I wasn’t exactly sure what he wanted from me - part of me wondered if he would want to conduct studies on the effects of Zija with my tourettes. Instead of talking to me, he started having the saleslady write down a nutrition plan. When he got to how many packets of drink mix to have a day, he started to say one and a half. Then he asked who it was for (looking between me and my mom), and when I said it was me, he changed it to two whole packets. I guess because of my weight? I’m still wondering if this could possibly be for some tourettes-related study (which frankly, I’d be all for. I want to become an activist for tourette syndrome), but as soon as he’s finished he has her hand me the paper, without any contact info, and sends me on my way. Confused, I ask about a means for contact, and the woman tells me to go look at his website. I really should have known better.
Mom and I left. But not before stopping at a table outside the door where they were selling products. I was skeptical and unsatisfied and unsure what to think about the whole thing, but in the end, Mom wound up getting two bottles of their energy drink and two of their shaker bottles, one for each of us. I think the total cost was another $200. Yeouch. She wanted some of their oil, but the guy said that sold out quickly.
As cynical as I am over the whole thing, remember when I said I trust my family doctor? That’s what’s kept me from dismissing this whole deal and calling that guy a charlatan. My train of thought was that if my doctor supports it and both Mom and his nurses are apparently seeing results, maybe it’s worth trying out. At the very least, we’re now stuck with what we currently have, so it may as well be used, right? And maybe it’ll prove me wrong. If it doesn’t, we don’t get anymore. Simple as that.
Later I spoke to my friends and wound up feeling really stupid for not giving into my skepticism and doing my research before blowing that much money. Between the three of us, we dug up a few pages with sparse info on the moringa oleifera, including this thread, and I found the Discovery Channel documentary Bianchi had referenced.
The documentary:
Some PubMed links that weren’t posted earlier:
Moringa oleifera Lam prevents acetaminophen induced liver injury through restoration of glutathione level.
Micellarization and intestinal cell uptake of beta-carotene and lutein from drumstick (Moringa oleifera) leaves
Chronic benzylamine administration in the drinking water improves glucose tolerance, reduces body weight gain and circulating cholesterol in high-fat diet-fed mice.
Alteration of brainmonoamines & EEG wave pattern in rat model of Alzheimer’s disease & protection by Moringa oleifera.
Moringa oleifera: a food plant with multiple medicinal uses.
Moringa oleifera prevents selenite-induced cataractogenesis in rat pups.
There were many other articles in the search, but as I’m largely only a laymen when it comes to medical terminology, many of them went over my head.\
Links concerning nutritional information:
Moringa oleiferaLam[/ur] - Contains chemistry information.
[url=http://www.moringatree.co.za/analysis.html]NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS OF LEAVES, PODS, FLOWERS AND SEEDS. - Contains percentage information on some of the plant’s nurtients.
Moringa oleifera Beverages - Contains a more complete list of all currently verified nutrients for Zija, however does not give percentages.
Dr. Duke’s
Phytochemical and Ethnobotanical Databases - Referenced by the previous page.
As I said in the beginning, I don’t have anymore knowledge about nutrition than the average person, so a lot of this stuff is going over my head. If anyone can provide laymanized translations and let me know if there’s any information of value, it would be greatly appreciated.
Other links of potential interest:
Cancer Prevention Or Treatment With Morgina Oleifera - This is especially significant to me because I am one of only two people in my family who has not had some form of cancer.
OHS students research plant cancer cures
Moringa oleifera may provide protection against Alzheimer’s disease in a rat model. - So there ARE potential neurological benefits. This is also significant to me because my grandmother had severe alzheimers.
Those seem to be the only articles of real significance I can find concerning the plant’s medicinal properties beyond the usual anti-malnutrition, anti-inflammatory, etc. that Zija talks about.
In reference to the percentages of nutrients, I did notice, somewhat disturbingly, that my drink mix, capsules and tea do not even list the basics in the supplement facts, much less give percentages.The capsules only list Calcium (coral), Magnesium (coral), Vitamin B6 (pyridoxie HCI) and Chromium (polynicotinate). The tea gives you Calories, Calories from fat, Total fat, Saturated fat, Total carbohydrate, Dietary fiber, Sugars, Sodum and Protein. The drink mix… oh man… we get Morgina oleifera leaf powder, Morgina oleifera leaf puree, Morgina oleifera seed cake, Morgina oleifera fruit powder, Morgina oleifera fruit juice, Calories, Total carbohydrate, and Natural cane sugar. This is in stark contrast to my Women’s One-A-Day tablets, which lists everything from Vitamin A, Vitamin D, Vitamin B12, Iron, etc, and give me the exact percentages.
As of this moment I’m still prowling around for anymore information I can grab, though my poor knowledge in nutrients is presenting a major problem, which has only been emphasized to me by paperbackwriter’s info earlier in this thread. One of my friends said that while she believes the plant is indeed good for nutrition, she doesn’t see how it differs from drinking a V8. I also have to wonder if it’s anymore beneficial than my Women’s One-A-Day tablets. The other friend suggested that I begin contacting several nutritionists to get their take on the subject, which I intend to do. I also plan to ask my doctor for his opinion as well. Hell, who knows, maybe he’s aware of some information that hasn’t yet made it online.
In the meantime, since I’m already stuck with a supply of Zija anyway, I will continue to take it and attempt to monitor my progress. I will keep this thread posted on whatever results or new information I find. If Zija is truly a scam, or truly something beneficial, people deserve to know.
Finally, as a slightly off subject note, I would like to say that reading DaBabysDaddy’s posts and his general behavior and attitude has been a major embarrassment to me as someone on the fence about this product. I would also like to praise paperbackwriter for your valuable input.
Reported.
… Why am I being reported?
The staff (and LittleMissPriss) dealt with this issue earlier. I don’t think this post is spam.
Oh for the love of…
LMP, have you read any of this thread?
Yes, I have. And I’m trying to explain what my experiences with this product has been, provide information I have found in trying to research it, and ask a few questions. Perhaps I should have presented my questions first.
OK. Then I apologize for the implied accusation.
I appreciate that kind acknowledgment. It’s nice to know that the work I put into those posts have helped even one person. To get on with your questions, though:
First of all, I have no way of knowing why your doctor recommends Zija. I don’t know him and I can only guess at the reasoning. That said, however, I can make a fairly educated guess: No person (including yours truly) is immune from seemingly-convincing anecdotal evidence. Even the smartest, most skeptical people can occasionally make errors in judgment, including doctors. I know from working with a lot of doctors that a convincing pitch that addresses a need their practice has can slip through the scientific defenses.
Secondly, the “Discovery Channel documentary” if it did indeed air on that channel appears to have done so as an infomercial. There are no credits, there are no indications on-screen that it did appear on Discovery (usually their shows have a “bug” in the corner), there is no production information, and the production values are circa 1975. It has all the hallmarks of a snake oil show, and there’s really nothing meaningful in it. The implied endorsement of the Discovery Channel is equally meaningless.
Thirdly, you were exposed to such a blizzard of misinformation and outright falsehoods at this seminar that it indicates the promoters have no real need to be sticklers about their facts. You picked out the spider bite falsehood, so congrats on that. Other claims, of varying merit:
[ul][li]plastic bottled water uses releases toxins–Partially true. Phthalates are in many pplastics and they are being implicated in health concerns. They are not “toxins,” strictly speaking, but they are estrogen-mimics. They can have negative health effects, and because of this are being phased out. []microwaving water creates hydrogen peroxide–Utterly false. Simplified, microwave radiation is radio waves that oscillate water molecules, and hydrogen peroxide is water with an extra oxygen. Making H2O2 from H2O means you are breaking oxygen atoms off some of the water molecules and slamming them onto others, which is pretty magical for a microwave oven[]all food we eat no longer has the same nutritional value as it did some decades ago–Phrased as an absolute like this, false. The kernel of truth hiding behind that falsehood is that modern supermarket produce is the result of breeding for shipping and presentation concerns, instead of nutrition concerns and the shipping process can result in loss of some nutrients from aging or storage. That said, the standard way of preparing veggies decades ago was to boil the poor things until every last vitamin was wrenched whimpering from the food, so we have that going for us. Locally-grown veggies should be every bit as good as the stuff our grandparents had access to.[]high fructose corn syrup has a foreign molecule not found in nature–False. there are legit potential health concerns about HFCS, but a “foreign molecule not found in nature” is pure fantasy. HFCS is glucose and fructose, two sugars that most assuredly are found in nature.[]no one is born with a predisposition for disease. That all has to do with the stuff in the food we eat.–False, false, false, false. Diet can cause disease states (e.g., atherosclerosis) but it is equally true that many diseases are genetically-coded. [/li][/ul]
Fourthly, you posted some Pubmed links of some new research that has been released since I initially characterized the research on moringa as “very preliminary.” I don’t think the new research changes that judgment, though:[ul][li]rat research that suggests a way of protecting the liver against acetominophen (Tylenol/Paracetamol) overdose[]cell-culture research showing Vitamin A can be absorbed by intestinal cells from Moriinga extracts if consumed with oil.[]Mouse research about a potential diabetes adjunct therapy from one phytochemical.[]Something so distantly connected to any useable health claim I won’t even bother summarizing[]A review article[*]more preliminary rat research[/li][/ul]
Bottom line: there are still no peer-reviewed human trials showing any benefit.
I hope this helps.
You’re a better man than I, paperbackwriter. Bravo once again.
I’d like to join in the chorus of voices thanking paperbackwriter for his(?) contributions. On a tangentially-related topic, I just finished reading Ben Goldacre’s Bad Science: Quacks, Hacks, and Big Pharma Flacks, which deals in large part with how to critically evaluate health & alternative medicine claims such as these. It was an extremely informative book, and funny to boot, and I would highly recommend it for anyone who wants to figure out how to wade through the types of hype that product like Zija put out.
If there’s any way other than writing articles for the column to earn that SDSAB title, you’ve done it, paperbackwriter. Heck, I’m a bit jealous.
The science behind Zija is impeccable. But I would first note that the Discovery channel produced a 1 hour documentary on the Morninga Oleifera Tree approx 10 years ago. In that documentary, a pharmacologist by the name of Monica Marcu explains some of the reasons why the Moringa can be so beneficial. She has written a book called, “The Miracle Tree”. She states that morninga comes very close to being a perfect food.
Dr. Russ Bianchi is the formulator of Zija. He has been the only person to keep the enzymes alive during the prosess. His company, Adept Solutions, in California is well known for many of the food formulations. Russ is well educated and can back up and disputes regarding the potency and benefits of Zija. You can also visit his web site. www.russbianchi.com
The pharmaceutical companies that have tried to profit from Moringa have failed because they could not keep the sequencing correct.
There are many supporters of Morniga around the world and over 800 ducumented studies.
For me the difference was immediate. As far as the expense, I take no other supplements and couldn’t begin to gather (or consume) enough other foods that contain the nutrition that is found in Zija. I have tried the leaf powder available on the internet, but realized no benefits.
I trust my body and listen carefully to what it tells me. After 30 years of searching for an ideal supplement, I finally found it in Zija!
** sigh **
I got as far as “keep the enzymes alive” and then my eyeballs boiled in my skull.
(Do you think Zija would fix my eyes?)
Again? really? This thread has created a whole new category of threads for the SDMB – it’s not a zombie thread, it’s a vampire. Continually rising from the depths with an unholy semblance of life, refusing to go away. Ok, I’ll give the ol’ wooden stake another try:
No. I have looked at the claims of scientific proof many times and they are extremely peccable. The science behind Zija is a mixture of unproven claims, over-stated and mis-applied (if interesting) preliminary findings, and absolute garbage. And that’s being generous, in that the actual published science has been on individual components or extracts supposedly in Zija, and not the drink itself.
Yes, you and every other Zija promoter tries to use Discovery Channel’s caché as some sort of proof of legitimacy. It’s simply silly. Number 1, the program in question was not produced by the Discovery Channel, although there has been some evidence that that channel showed it. Number 2, Discovery Channel is not a science channel, or an educational channel, its an entertainment corporation. They broadcast credulous shows about ghosts and monsters, for pete’s sake. Number 3, the show in question is not so much a documentary as it is an infomercial. It may not have 1-800 numbers to call, but the production has all the unquestioning acceptance and feigned incredulity of an Oxiclean commercial. Sum total: this over 10-year old show is scientifically worthless.
Fascinating, but why, then, has she never published any findings about the perfection of moringa in any peer-reviewed journal? Before you start in about the conspiracy among mainstream scientists to suppress outsider science, I should say that that ad hoc defense is B.S. I’ve recently reviewed published studies on why nicotine is good for you and why you should eat more saturated fat, so there is lots of room for iconoclasts to publish in the many thousands of journals published around the globe every year. She couldn’t even get one little letter to the editor published about the wonders of this perfect food? (Note: While it sounds like I’m mocking her, what I’m really mocking is the attempted appeal to authority.)
Another strangely silent scientist. Let’s be honest here: Bianchi publishes, but only in places where he doesn’t have to subject his claims to any scrutiny. In other words, he lies (or at least exaggerates) to people without the background and experience to know better, all to promote his own product. Don’t you see perhaps just the teeniest sliver of a conflict of interest there?
As for his education, yes, he is indisputably an educated person. So what? I’m well-educated and I say he can’t back up the disputes regarding Zija. Which equally-valid claim of education are you going to accept? (Wait, wait, don’t answer that, let me guess…)
This is just pure B.S… In fact, it’s worse than B.S., because it’s meaningless B.S… The only kind of “sequences” anyone would need to make sure were correct in reproducing a pharmaceutical would be ones related to gene or protein sequences. Neither Marcu, Bianchi, nor anyone else as far as I can find claims to be producing moringa-derived products through a genetic engineering or protein engineering process. They all talk about moringa “extracts.” An extract is derived from the plant and every active substance should already be in there. There’s no sequencing of any kind happening. If he were to claim that he took some genetic code from the moringa tree and spliced it into yeasts and was producing it like recombinant insulin, then there might be at least some sense to this claim.
I wonder if you might be able to document this figure of 800 studies, because I sure can’t. The National Library of Medicine’s Pubmed database lists 210, the National Agricultural Library’s Agricola database yields 235, and the Science Citation Index yields 437. Granted, there is some perfectly authoritative studies in there. So if you want to use moringa seeds and seed hulls to filter your drinking water, you have every scientific imprimatur you could want. Even then what I said years ago still applies: there are no peer-reviewed, published, double-blind studies in humans showing any unique biological affect from moringa. At best it is an interesting food source.
Well I’m very happy for you. Once again, the anecdotes of a random somebody who’s part of a a multi-level marketing scheme are presented as the ultimate proof of the effectiveness of the substance he promotes. Stop the presses: We have the evidence we’ve been searching for!
But perhaps I’m being unnecessarily snarky. Perhaps you have nothing but pure intentions. Perhaps, in your eagerness, you simply posted what you thought you knew without being aware of the discussion that has taken place in this thread thus far. In that case I say to you: please go back and do so.
I also therefore make this promise: If you can make some genuinely-new claim about Zija or moringa that hasn’t been discussed so far and has some sort of basis to it, I will be more than happy to engage you in discussing it.