Didn’t someone say that her health plan is about a thousand pages long? I don’t need to be right that much. Besides, I’m not the one who needs to provide a quote. 
It is evident that their spokespersons continue to make the same claim after thirteen years, but until I see the quoted portion of Hillary Clinton’s plan that justifies those charges, then it is I who must dismiss those claims as gratuitous. And that is what is at issue.
So in other words, you are so invested in thinking of her that way, that you fall back on that we can’t prove she never did think of it? Or rather, that we can’t prove it did not come up among all the ideas, proposals, scenarios, fantasies, WAGs, etc. that necessarily have to pass before whatever workgroup or committee? Because we can’t prove that either! (or at least I’d be shocked if we could) But so what? What WAS proposed did not include it, not being able to prove it was never there is meaningless. Let it go, man. There’s plenty of verifiable stuff over which to nail her.
Were I in you place, I would suspect every source that did not lend itself to fact-checking. Notice, I would not* presume * it “misleading and erroneous”, but I would certainly give a much higher latitude for “y’know, this could be wrong”. I only have to say, as I have other times, that unless memory fails me the instant the Bill & Hill Show rolled down Pennsylvania Avenue, “sources” were already viciously hostile to them BOTH in matters of policy and of character. At least with George W only started with mere derision; he had to work at earning hatred 
But with all due respect, how can there be the notion that La Rodham could realistically be tarred as a “would-be socialist dictator”? Were I Fidel Castro I’d be demanding an apology 
. She plans on doing some good ole’ fashioned taxing and spending. If that was not socialist dictatorship when done by the last 10 Presidents, it won’t be when whoever comes next does it.
Umm, hello? tap-tap-tap Is this thing working?
Yes, it is. I’ve been busy with work and a sudden family get-together which have kept me busy the last couple of days. I just checked my email and discovered the additional posts that had been made since I was last here. Several of you have made posts that require more substantive answers than I have time to compose right now. I will try to return soon, probably tomorrow night, and post my response(s).
Regards,
SA
When you supposedly heard this claim years ago, did you immediately think: “That is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard! Only an idiot would believe that!” Because that was my immediate thought when I read your OP.
You are kidding, right? I mean fer Christ’s sake, here we are, talking about one of the thickest minds on the Dope’s posters roster. SA and intelligence mix about as well as water and oil.
No way I mean to lecture you, but in the main, I read his posts as rightwing satire. Of course, the fact that it is really unintended also scares the shit outta me.
I mean, really, where’s your country headed if ditto-headed, brainless farts such as SA and Bush stay in power? Not like Dubya makes SA look like Einstein by comparison, but close – doubt either one ever had an opinion they could call their own. Fuckin’ A though, they’d be great drinking buddies.
Question is, who’d blow whom. Personally I don’t give a rat’s ass for that sort of cliffhanger, but it does make me weary of democracy as a whole when braindead farts such as SA have the right to vote – and their vote’s equal to a sanes’ person.
Anyway, you know I love ya, SA. It’s your posts that I can’t stand. No wonder America is going down the drain. We’ll always have people like you to thank for the free-falling downward spiral of the past seven years. Get rid of that nose-ring you’re being pulled by, along with the recorded fascist talking-points, SA. Freedom’s a beautiful thing. Read some Carl Sagan. Then perhaps you’ll be able to move-on to Bertrand Russell.
Og! What a fucking nightmare you and your mindless fascist pseudo-conservatives are! Here’s hoping your awakening as a nation goes beyond the 06 elections.
One thing’s for sure, you can’t and you won’t have my very American kid for cannon-fodder.
Anyway, apologies for jumping in and the garbled response, Frank, but unlike SA, I’m not a backstabber*. Got something to say I’ll say it in that person’s face.
That’s all.
*Surely SA must know what I am talking about. Pussy.
Not at all. For one thing, the Social Security system, another gigundous government attempt to ‘take care of us’ requires full participation and provides penalties, up to and including prison, for anyone seeking to opt out of it and provide for their own retirement and health care. The government has made it so no one (save federal employees, IIRC) has the option of not participating in this grand government scheme, and so it did not appear to me to be a stretch that they would force everyone to participate in the government’s health plan as well. Plus, Hillary was an unknown then, save for her reputation as a smug, superior, know-it-all and former college-radical, who in the minds of many was functioning as president-without-portfolio and working in secret behind closed doors to formulate the health care plan that would eventually be foist upon the nation. Thus, given the government’s history with Social Security and the fact that Hillary was (is) regarded as a socialist radical who believes the government knows best and who seemed to feel it necessary to hide what she was doing from public scrutiny, it didn’t seem at all ridiculous to me that she and her cronies would try to force everyone to submit to her plan, probably under the for-public-consumption rationale that the only way it would work is if everyone had to comply.
No, I don’t…unless you’re thinking I blew the whistle on you for threatening me and Shodan with physical violence awhile back. I can assure you that whoever reported you, it wasn’t me, and it wasn’t done at my instigation. I’ve never reported anyone for anything they’ve said (or for anything at all, for that matter) in the entirety of my time here.
I, too, will say anything I have to say in that person’s face.
Now, having said that, I love you, too, Red!
You’re really not such a bad guy, you know.
Huh?
Cite, please.
Hillary wouldn’t be a socialist dictator.
a) To whatever extent Hillary Clinton would be a dictator (i.e., grabbing the reins of power and not giving a shit about anyone else’s perspective or opinion), the politics of her dictatorship would be perhaps a notch or two to the left of Bill Clinton on domestic policies, perhaps a notch or three to his right on foreign policy. A long way from socialist.
b) Meanwhile, the extent to which she would in fact behave like a dictator would be more decisively authoritarian than Bill Clinton (who was disparaged for trying to run the Presidency as a popularity contest, being so far from dictatorial that to some folks he seems to stand for nothing except trying to please as many people as possible) but far far less than George W. Bush (the modern epitome of “my way or the highway” approaches to administration).
c) What remains to be seen —and will be a huge factor in the primaries and the election, I think — is the extent to which she turns out to be good at managing perceptions and controlling how she and her (potential/actual) administration is thought of. If she is not so good at that part of being a politician, she may well get painted as a (potential/actual) socialist dictator, which could make her unelectable, un-nominable, or ineffective in office once elected.
It’s hers to lose, so let’s see what she’s got. I think she has the skill and the chops in terms of policy and insight and wisdom, but can she inspire, lead, and make people feel comfortable with her at the helm?
You’re kidding, right, kaylasdad? Do you honestly think that you could choose not to pay into the Social Security system and get away with it? FDIC payments are a tax. Why else the talk from time to time about making Social Security voluntary? (Bear in mind that I’m not saying people can’t provide for their own retirement, but they still have to contribute to Social Security anyway.)
Anyway, the following is an excerpt from a letter written by Charles Mullen, Associate Commissioner, Office of Public Inquiries, SSA, to a Mr/Ms Devvy Kidd and dated February 24, 1998:
“People cannot voluntarily end their participation in the program [SS]. The payment of social security taxes is mandatory, regardless of the citizenship or place of residence of either the employer or the employee. Unless specifically exempted by law (this would be federal employees, IIRC–SA), everyone working in the United States is required to pay Social Security taxes.”
Mr. Mullen follows this up in another letter with the following statement, made March 9, 1999:
"People cannot voluntarily end their participation in the program [SS]. The payment of Social Security taxes is mandatory…Benefits are paid only on the basis of a voluntary application…The constitutionality of the Social Security System, as established by the Social Security Act, and mandatory individual participation have already been decided by the Supreme Court.
[Bolding mine]
Starving, Hillary is to rich to be a socialist. Do you really think that she wants to give away all of their money? Nyah!
Not exactly. People are not penalized for providing for their own retirement and health care. I have my pension which I get in addition to my social security. And I’m able to collect any monies due me from investments just like anyone else. I continue to have exactly the same insurance coverage that I had when I was teaching, but it is secondary to Medicare.
Try to imagine what would become of this country if Social Security runs out of money just as the Boomers are hitting their eighties. If the government doesn’t “take care of them” (just as the Boomers took care of the GI Generation and the Silent Generation), what are you going to do with them – send them to rich corporate heads to take care of?
Believe me, no one receiving Social Security is getting wealthy from it. So don’t think it is a grand giveaway.
Well, ‘Do as I say, not as I do’ has been a hallmark of most of the liberals I’ve seen in action.
Yes, I know. Perhaps you were composing your post while I was composing the post above, but certainly people can plan for and finance their own retirement and/or health care or receive it from other sources. My point is that this would have to be in addition to their mandatory Social Security contributions.
No, it’s too late and we’re all too invested by now. Perhaps some sort of rollback which would allow private investment (a solution I’ve thought preferable since my teens, btw) will alleviate things somewhat at some point in the future.
When I spoke of it as a ‘grand government scheme’, I was speaking of it at its inception.
But anyway…how you doin’?
No, not in the least.
Of course I don’t. I also don’t have any particular reason to want to, for myself, or to be supportive of anyone else’s attempts to do so.
Strange as you may find it, that has not escaped my notice.
See, that’s where you got me all confused. 'Cos that part I bolded before? The part that goes
That part?
That kinda looked like you thought there were criminal penalties for setting up individual retirement accounts. I guess I’m relieved to see that you don’t think that.
The rest of your post I didn’t find particularly germane to my request for a cite. But since you’re evidently not claiming what I thought I was asking for a cite for, I’ll withdraw the request.
It appears there was just a misunderstanding all around, then. Thank you.
Argument By Attrition, baby. Some day I’ll see a good explanation as to how it’s not trolling.
-Joe
Nitpick - Trent Lott spends a lot more time talking to Mississippians than Louisiana’ers.
-Joe
Okay…
ETA
(Note: It’s 4.5 meg, and takes several minutes to load.)
Fair to middlin’ except for this damned brain anyurism. Just one more thing to blame on Bush, Cheney & Co. I’m waiting to see what my brain surgeon :rolleyes: says we should do about it. If I’m lucky, we can just keep an eye on it and use it as an excuse for faulty logic and incoherent sentences in my posts. If I’m only moderately lucky, I’ll get a face-lift out of this. If my luck runs out, I hope you win the pool.
Attorney and former Sen. Fred Thompson (R., TN) is being encouraged to run for President. He was Watergate Counsel to Sen. Howard Baker, played himself in a movie, took on acting roles, became a very popular U.S. Senator, resigned, returned to acting (Law and Order). If you just have to vote Republican, he’s a good man. I seem to remember voting for him. Shhh! Don’t tell.
Soooz…how you doin’?
So… has a lawyer-type read the bill yet?