Tell me how I, as a female in the corporate world, can gain respect from males in my industry.

In My Humble Opinion
21

Wow, lots of great advice in this thread. Even Rand Rover had something thoughtful and useful to add. Bravo, Rand! I’d like to see more posts from you like that.

My own contribution to this is don’t lose your femininity in all this. I’ve seen too many women who try to compete in a “man’s world” by losing all of their femininity and taking on the very worst aspects masculinity. When they get called bitchy for that, they say that men are threatened by strong women. Nope. Men are put off by overbearing assholes.

There used to be two women in this office. (Well, way more than two.) One is still here, thankfully. The other is long gone, really really really thankfully.

The former is a girly girl who knows who she is, is confident in her femininity, does a great job, and respects everyone as equals. She can pretty much have whatever she wants here. Everyone loves and respects her.

The latter had something to prove. She overcompensated for her lack of a penis by being a controlling, overbearing prick. She was so hell-bent on asserting her way that we lost a couple of million dollars and months of productivity. We’re all glad that she’s gone.

Be yourself and do a great job. That’s the formula for success.

22

I actually think that Calgary is pretty progressive when it comes to women in non-traditional roles - I agree with the other posters who’ve suggested that you’re projecting, or focusing on the wrong thing.

If people aren’t taking you seriously (and I’m not convinced thats the case), it probably has more to do with your age than with your gender.

Do a good job, focus on work, be friendly with your coworkers without trying to turn the place into a Coffee Klatch and you should be fine.

I have a coworker who used to work as a Journeyman Pipefitter (JourneyWoman?) - she’s expressed more than once that generally she focused on her job, didn’t worry about the sex of her co-workers, and only ‘swung her dick around’ when absolutely necessary (i.e. an new apprentice trying to tell her how to do her job, for instance). The senior folks presented few problems.

23

I’m going to recommend a book You Just Don’t Understand which is about communication. I just read this book a few weeks ago and it really opened my eyes on how people, and especially men and women, communicate differently. There was a lot in the book about how men and women talk in the work place. I liked it so much that I bought a copy and gave it to a friend of mine and started reading one of her other books as well.

24

Just work hard, be true to yourself, and treat people fairly. You’ll go as far and as high up the corporate ladder as you deserve. You’ll just make 15% less than your male counterparts.

25

Allow me to fight your ignorance. You often see statistics saying that women make x% less than men IN THE SAME JOB. But those statistics are computed simply by comparing the average salary of all working women to the average salary of all working men. The “in the same job” part is therefore not supported by the statistics. The explanation for the disparity is that women often take lower-paying jobs than domen on average (eg, teachers and nurses).

Also, even if it were the case that women “in the same job” make less, there are very solid non-sexist reasons for that, such as that women often take a long time off work to have kids, thus not developing their skills on the same pace as men. This doesn’t mean that women across the board should make less–it just means that on average they will if they have kids, for the same reason that a 45 year old on average makes more than a 43 year old (ie, they’ve had two more years of skill development).

26

I think this nails it. It’s only been 8 months, which really isn’t very long in a new place. People who have been working there for decades are still figuring out who you are - and that would be true regardless of your gender. It’s gonna take awhile longer for them to really figure out what you can do, and that you’re good at it. That’s just life. So keep doing good work, and all that.

My one specific piece of advice: definitely don’t skip on prep for meetings. When you’re in a group situation where you might have an observation or question, you want it to be an intelligent, informed question or comment. That always helps in terms of people’s perceptions of you.

Also, as Iridescent Orb said, if you were in a meeting with 15 senior management types, and you weren’t taking minutes and serving coffee, somebody must be taking you seriously for you to have been included.

27

Cite?

28

That’s cute Winston. You are the one that says she will make 15% less and then you ask me for a cite. How about you provide a cite to support your own assertion? Your cite will probably fail to prove your point for one of the two reasons I mentioned.

29

The 15% figure is so widely accepted that to say it’s not so is what needs a cite these days. Unfortunately a cite either way is pretty hard to come by. When you dig into the data, it tends to get really messy. You have to control for all sorts of uncontollable variables. It’s a big enough and messy enough question that it probably deserves its own thread. In fact there probably has already been one.

30

Fantastic advice in this thread, thank you everyone. Maybe I do need to get over myself. My perception could very well be totally off and it could also be that I’m just not used to working with these types of people yet (down to business, not chatty at all). It could also have more to do with my age rather then my sex. I think some of it also comes from the fact that I feel like I have to watch my back because I am new and they are still making job cuts.

To answer and/or expand on a few things: I am not Senior Management, I am just below (I’m an Analyst and work alongside the Director for my department). The reason I am attending these meetings is that my boss, the Director, doesn’t have the time or inclination to. I feel like our department needs to be way more involved in these aspects (Marketing Strategy related to Sustainable Construction) and so have stepped in to ensure we are at least represented.

Even though it’s illegal and not openly discussed, women in this company, especially those of child bearing age, seem to be held back from advancement. Again, my perception could be biased. However, as an example, one woman in my group is going on Mat leave in the next few days, but doesn’t know she will be let go in a few weeks. Yes, they found a loophole to get rid of her, and they’re doing it. I am not 100% sure of the reasons, but I know it doesn’t have to do with budget or her smarts / work ethic. I have been asked when/if I’m going to have kids and it was inferred that having kids will hold me back. According to the company policy, I am guaranteed a job when I return from Mat leave (unless they use the aforementioned loophole), but not in the same capacity if they choose not to put me back where I was. Yes, I DO make less than other male Analysts of the same education (it’s a title based upon pay grade), but that could also be because they were more persistent with salaries and raises. They could have also lied about what they make, to be honest.

As another example, I am not often introduced when new employees are being taken on the rounds (neither is my counterpart in Safety (female), but my counterpart in Marketing is (male)). I am also asked to please make coffee if the admin assistants aren’t in yet and someone is having a meeting, or asked if I can bring the projector to the meeting. This is stuff that somehow is expected of the females in the group, but not the males. I am NOT admin, but it seems like I am asked to do it regardless.

Either way, I am myself. I crack jokes and am helpful when I can be. I ask thoughtful questions (and actually did so this morning, which started a good discussion). I’ve been researching the other components to our business so I can get a good idea of what they’re talking about around the table. I dress professionally and have a firm handshake (this should be important for both sexes, obviously).

I don’t expect to be the president of the company, but I do want people to know my name and associate it with good attributes.

31

You’re not admin, I think you have to stand up for youself there. Might be too late if you’ve already shown a willingness to be treated as admin.

32

Yeah, but I don’t want to be a bitch either. How do I say no if there isn’t any admin in the office to do it?

33

You’re 29 and have been there for eight months. You’ve proven nothing. The secret to being taken seriously is to keep working there and prove you’re good at your job. I would generally agree that you should avoid being The No Admin Person Who Does Admin Stuff, but do it carefully. Concentrate on doing YOUR job well and when you do extra stuff, make an effort to make it the extra stuff that moves in the direction you want.

“Implied,” just to be picky.

And the correct answer to this question is no answer at all. It’s inappropriate. Don’t make a fuss, but might I make a general suggestion?

Document everything.

Someone asks you when you’re having kids? Write it down. Someone implies that so-and-so is being held back or fired for having kids? Write it down. Try to get people to send emails when possible and save them. On this issue, and ALL issues, write everything down. If it’s not written down, it never happened. If it is written down, it might just be your ticket to preventing this sort of bullshit\ or winning a huge severance package.

(Which, sadly, can affect men too, and I know from personal experience.)

34

If you come off in real life the way you do in your OP, you seem squeamish, nervous and unsure of yourself. Stop being squeamish, nervous and unsure of yourself. I winced when I read that you struggled with how you should act around them. The answer to that is: like a normal person, and not like a nervous woman, unsure of how to behave. Nobody cares that you have a vagina, except you. To everybody else, you either cut the mustard or you don’t. Basically, what Rand Rover said.

Was this necessary?

35

My wife is a Systems Engineer, at her new job the boss asks her to make coffee for a meeting.

She said, “Trust me, no one wants ME to make coffee, my kitchen skills are non-existent.” Then she just sat at the table and the next guy in was asked to make coffee.

36

No, not really. Sorry, Rand.

37

I put on a good front and appear confident in my abilities and knowledge, though I often feel like I’m a big BSer in some aspects. It took me about five years to get to the point where I could confidently sit in a meeting and not appear nervous. I also have a slight fear of public speaking, so do it often to get myself used to it. I hate doing it, but I mitigate that by being very prepared.

My OP was centered around my feelings, not my true actions. I certainly don’t present myself in this manner. I NEVER expose my nervousness / anxiety / anger at work, EVER. I know that’s a deadly mistake (I never cry at work either).

38

“Be yourself?” No. Don’t. You need to change a few things, both in approach and in your beliefs.

I speak from experience in a company absolutely dominated by middle-aged men. And my role is definitely “below” the people I work with. Yet I’m taken quite seriously.

Competence is key, of course, but beyond that, here are some tips:

–**The way to be taken seriously is to act as if you already are taken seriously. ** Fake it 'til you feel it.

–Being female in a male-dominated industry is an ADVANTAGE. Work it! You’re instant diversity.

–Don’t try to be more “masculine” in manner or appearance. Be feminine! Don’t be sexy. Be attractive. People, men and women alike, prefer to be around attractive people. Just make something of what you’ve got.

–Seek out mentors. Being attractive will help with this. Who’s going to ask you to sit in on a client meeting if they’re afraid that the client will look at you and think “ewww.”

–At the same time, make sure your workspace isn’t “feminine.” Keep it simple and businesslike. Do you have knickknacks? Get rid of them. Family pictures? Keep one or two in a simple frame. Having shit all over your desk and walls is secretary stuff, which will hinder your being taken seriously even if you’re a secretary!

–If your OP is any indication at all of how you communicate at work, you desperately need to alter your communication style. Your manner can be feminine, but speak in Man-ish. I was also going to suggest reading You Just Don’t Understand, which clearly explains the difference.

Some communication tips follow:

–Keep written communication short and to the point. Take what you write and edit it down. A lot. If you write 30 words and can make the same point in 20, use 20.

–In spoken communication, get to the point. Don’t preface things with a lot of blah blah. Say what you’re going to say.

–Don’t dither and qualify things. Don’t say “I’m not sure if this is a good idea or not but…” Of course it’s a good idea, of you wouldn’t be sharing it. There might be reasons why it wouldn’t work, but it’s a good idea. If you must qualify it, keep it simple and don’t take away from the validity of the idea. “If it’s feasible, we could…”

–Use strong keywords that your coworkers can relate to. X won’t save money. It will “reduce costs.” Y won’t “make money.” It will “increase sales/revenues/profits.” Z won’t make the employees unhappy. It will “increase turnover.”

–Women tend to be consensus builders. This is a great skill to use sometimes, but make sure you don’t fall into the trap of doing it when it will make you look weak. If people are debating whether to take proposal A or proposal B, and you think B is better, don’t be afraid to stick with that. You don’t have to press the issue. You can make your point and then keep quiet. You can acknowledge the strengths of A and support the decision to go with A once the decision is made, but don’t feel that you have to agree with everyone. (Plus, if A goes hinky for reasons that you brought up as disadvantages of that proposals, you’ll look smart.)

–And for god’s sake, don’t talk about your husband/boyfriend/kids/pet! It’s cool if they know you have them, but men don’t want to hear about them! If you’re asked how your weekend was, you could say “Great! I finally saw Avatar.” Don’t say “Really good. See, my husband and I have a ‘date night’ every month, and we decided on dinner and a movie…”
On preview:

Wow…sounds like the situation is a lot rougher than I assumed! All the above still applies, but…wow.

WRT the introductions: step in and introduce yourself to the new person. Include your title, so they know you’re not support staff.

WRT to the coffee–DO NOT MAKE COFFEE EVER AGAIN. Find an excuse. Be too busy preparing for the meeting. Say you have to go to the bathroom if you have to. Suggest that your male counterpart (of the same level) do it. This might ruffle some feathers, but do it. If you have to, say “Oh, making coffee is easy. Let me show you how” and do it. If the admins usually make the coffee (what decade is this anyway?) suggest that one be asked to come in early to support the meeting. DO NOT MAKE THE COFFEE!

Asking you to make the coffee is such an insanely classic act of sexism that I almost find it hard to believe that they’re doing it.

BTW–I’m an admin (who is taken seriously) and I have no problem getting coffee for anyone. Well, we have a machine where nobody has to make it, but I’ll offer to bring someone a cup. That’s because nobody has EVER asked me to do that or suggested that it’s my job. If I offer, I’m usually told, “oh, you don’t need to do that. I’ll get it.”

WRT the projector: Your hands are full. Someone else can bring it.

WRT the “mommy track:” Consider telling people you don’t want children.

And in general–get what you can out of this job and parlay the experience into a better job with a higher salary at a company that doesn’t completely suck.
And what RickJay said. You’re not an admin. Don’t do admin work.
ETA: Please don’t anybody think that I’m denigrating admins/secretaries and the work that they do. I AM an admin! But non-admin women in the workplace sometimes have to take a VERY hard line to avoid being pushed into “a woman’s place.”

39

With regards to my written communication - I’ve actually been asked to be ‘nicer’ to the Managers I support. I was too brisk and to the point for them, apparently. I don’t fluff my emails up, I include the major points, I always set deadlines and I explain why I’m asking for the information. I used to sign my emails with ‘Regards’, or some variation thereof, but have been asked to change that to ‘Thanks for your help!’ or similar.

Overall, though, I think I have pretty decent writing skills (and have been told as much), and I do edit everything (emails included) before I send it on.

As for the kids issue, my boss actually asked me if I was going to have kids soon in my monthly meeting with him a few weeks ago. I felt like I had to be honest but gave a much longer timeline for trying (we are trying now and have been for years - we have fertility problems). He didn’t really comment on it after I told him that yes, we would be having kids at some point.

40

I once worked as a technical writer in a BMW factory, which was 2,000 guys and me. Eventually there were two other women on our team. I was the one who earned the guys’ respect, not so much the other two. Here’s how I handled it:

• The other women would have good ideas and when they pitched them to management, there was always a question mark in their tone of voice. I don’t ask, I tell. I wasn’t looking to the boys for their approval, I was pretty much cramming my idea down their throats and explaining to them how they were going to implement my idea. E.g., Don’t do this: “Could you guys please do X?” Do this: “Do X. By Friday. This will save us three gajillion dollars in the third quarter alone. Report back to me by close of business. Thanks.”

• The boys we worked with like to be merry pranksters and play practical jokes. I always rolled with this good naturedly. Occasionally, I exacted revenge. Never get pissy or upset when boys are being boys. Do not retaliate by being girly. Just smile, keep your mouth shut, and get back to work.

• The boys also liked to tease the girls to see if they could get 'em upset. I saw both of the other women I worked with cry over the teasing. I dished it right back, and because of my mad language skillz, I was usually able to end the game, humiliate the instigator, and get a great laugh out of everybody else. There’s no crying in business. Or baseball. Tease me in the workplace and I will verbally eviscerate you.

• Don’t ask permission, just do what you think is best (assuming well-thought-through solid business reasons for your decisions). Ask for forgiveness later, if necessary. Back yourself up with evidence of A) new business acquired or B) money made or saved.

• Respect yourself and treat others with respect. Do not allow anyone to cross your appropriate boundaries. Don’t overcompensate by being a ball-busting bitch, even though, to some people disagreement = personal attack. Disagree with respect, but don’t be a doormat and go along just to get along. Remember that, in men, assertively standing up for themselves is seen as a positive trait. In women, assertively standing up for yourself can earn you the nickname “bitch.” Sad, but true. Let it roll off and smile to yourself because you know when a man calls you a bitch, it’s because he has allowed himself to feel intimidated and feels compelled to tear you down so he can feel like he’s swinging meat. If a man calls you a bitch, you’ve already won. Don’t ruin the victory by fighting back. Just smile and say “And know that you know I’m a bitch, I’m sure we’ll get along a lot better.”

• Know your shit, and know it better than anybody else. Become indispensable, the go-to girl for whatever your specific area of expertise or talent is. You want to get promoted? Make the company money, bring in new business, or implement cost-saving ideas. Document to your boss how much you’ve made, how much new business you were responsible for bringing in, and how much money you saved. I think, actually, this is key business advice for anyone of any gender. Wanna get ahead of the pack? **Prove your worth to the company by contributing positively to the bottom line. **

• Avoid girly topics, which are generally inappropriate in the workplace anyway, such as: your menstrual cycle, the status of your relationship (BF, DH, whatever), children (whether your have them or not, whether you want them or not), puppies, kittens, recipes from your mother, rainbows, and unicorns. Oh, and Steve Madden shoes. Guys do not care about Steve Madden shoes. If they ask, “Why are women so obsessed with shoes?” the correct answer is “Because no matter what I weigh, great shoes always look great!”

• Whatever the sport is that all the boys at work follow and rib each other about and make betting pools over: learn it. Watch it. Follow it. Adopt a favorite team. Join the football pool (or whatever). Learn to play golf (or whatever). Be able to have an intelligent conversation about nonbusiness related topics that are common interests for everyone there. Example: In my old job, they were all about NFL football. One morning, two of the boys were arguing about which of their quarterbacks had a larger penis (or something, I wasn’t paying much attention to their stupid argument). One looked at me and asked, “You don’t like football, do you?” I responded, "No, actually, I love football. I just can’t stand to discuss it with you morons. I don’t know why you don’t just whip out your dicks and get to measuring because neither of you have actually said anything intelligent about football in the last 15 minutes. If you want to talk about that pass interference call in the 3rd Quarter, I’m in. If you want to talk about that blitz in the 4th Quarter, let’s talk. If you want to talk about the draft strategy that XYZ team should employ to improve their record next season, I’m right here. But if you guys just want to play ‘Whose quarterback has the biggest dick,’ then I’m bored already and have a lot of work to do. They blinked, laughed, and learned if they wanted to include me in on the football discussions, they better have something more substantial than “You have to wear my team’s hat tomorrow if your team loses.” :rolleyes: