Tell me what this switch on my mixing board does?

Factual Questions
1

I just bought a Behringer MX 802A mixing board today. It is a very basic yet nice 4 channel mixing board.

There is a switch on the back of the unit next to the power switch. It is called “Phantom” switch. Can someone tell me what this is for? I turn it on and don’t hear any noticable difference in the sound. I left everything dialed into the middle, so I should be pretty much sending the signal straight thru, but I would think this big switch would do something.

The sales guy mentioned it at the store as a nice feature but I thought I knew more than I really did apparently.

Another question for you while you are here. I am VERY new to home recording and am a little stumped about my guitar sound. From what I was told I should be able to run my guitar straight into this mixing board because it has a small pre-amp in it, then I run the stereo output (analog) into my analog line in on my Audigy in my computer. When I do that my guitar sounds, thru my computer speakers anyway, like the amp is in the next room. All muffled. I have everything dialed into the middle so it should just come out sounding clean right? There are very little highs and the bass is muffled but low.

Last question I I promise. I am trying out Cakewalk Pro V9.3 and cannot for the life of me figure out how to put the session drummer on one track by itself and then play along with it with my guitar. It seems I have to have a track already cut to put the drums in, and even when I do I cant get the drums to sound even though I set them up in the session drummer menu. Any ideas?

2

Question 1) That’s 48v phanton power for a mic. Leave it off if you aren’t using a mic that needs it -like a SM57/58 type mic. I hear phantom power will damage a mic like a SM58 but I have, by mistake, hit phantom on the channel the 58 was plugged into and it didn’t suffer any damage.

But just to be safe, leave it off unless you are using an unpowered condenser microphone.

Question 2) Yes. You should be able to plug the guitar into a track on the board and out from the board into your sound card. You might want to check what you are using for outputs. I don’t know the layout of a Behringer MX 802A, but check the back and see what the output options are. You aren’t sending out a FX send are you?

Quesiton 3) Sorry. Can’t help you there. I’m still using Cakewalk 6, and even then I only use it to control midi signals. No recording. :wink:

3
      • What exactly does the board’s “stereo output” jack say? What are its output specs?.. Normally, stage equipment sends low-Z mic signals as output, because that’s what PA systems need as input. A typical PC card is not designed to accept low-Z mic input at all; they use miniature mics that are high-Z. Connecting a low-Z mic to a high-Z jack works, but not real well (much like using a pair of headphones as a mic). You want a “line out” jack. If it doesn’t have one, then…
  • To do this right, you need a device that can accept a 1/4" (guitar) or XLR (low-Z mic) input, and produce a line-out signal with it. The Midiman Audio Buddy is a self-contained dual-channel device (the only one I know of, really) for doing just that. ~$80, several online retailers. - DougC
4

Phantom power won’t hurt dynamic mics but there’s no point in having it on if you’re not using condensor mics. The phantom power switch is for the whole board, so no one in their right mind would include it if it harmed other mics. It is a nice feature.

About your guitar signal, you have a stereo line out of your mixer into the line in of your sound card. There are two ways you can record: In stereo, or in mono. What might be happening is that you’re recording one half of a stereo signal.

Try this:

First of all, make sure that your guitar sounds the way you want it to before it leaves the mixer. Use the gain knob at the input to boost the signal if necessary. On the mixer, set the pan for the guitar channel all the way to the left.

I’m assuming you’re using the ‘Main’ outputs on your mixer.

You have a mono signal going into the left channel of your computer.

I don’t use Cakewalk (I use Cubase) but this should be fairly universal - select one track to record audio. Use whatever metering you have to make sure you have a strong signal going into the 'puter. Set the pan control all the way to the left (this may or may not make a difference). Hit record, play your guitar, stop.

Now when you play back, pan the sound back to center. How does it sound now?

Another problem could be that recording at the line in isn’t set up properly on your sound card. Open up the sound card control panel and make the adjustments.

If you want to get fancy, you can run the line out from your sound card into the 2-track inputs of your mixer and use the control room outputs to send a signal to your stereo. Don’t activate the control room to mix, though.

5

Lots of good info thanks. I am now wondering if I did the right thing when I got this board. I only want to lay down tracks with my guitar and I will NEVER be singing into it. I was looking at this LINE 6 POD unit that plugs into the usb port and will emulate all sorts of amps and effects but hte only thing I didnt like about that is that I want to record my accoustic as well as my electric, and I need to mic my acoustic. The line 6 is about 160 bucks and the guy at the store was raving about it, maybe becuase it cost 160 and not 99 like my mixer did.

Any suggestions?

Also, is there any programs that produce decent guitar effects without all the MIDI garbage? Cakewalk is a little too robust for what I want to do I think. I just want to mess with my AXE on the comp, not spend hours creating keyboard and drum backing tracks.

6

I use N-track. Seemed to be one of the easier ones to learn. I had sound card problems while messing with cakewalk. Finally figured out that the problem was my el-cheapo sound card and that it wouldn’t work with any recording software, but it did work ok for games. hmph. Anyway, by then I was using N-track and it works so I’m sticking with it.

N-track has plug ins for effects but I haven’t messed with them since I also have a nice pile of effects boxes. I have a mixing board that I made myself and I run my keyboard and guitars and a mic all through it. Generally, I record a drum track from my keyboard, then add other instruments like guitar and bass, then add vocals last. I also have a tape deck that I run into the mixer. I can play along with a tape or an mp3 on the guitar and it works pretty well.

The only tricky parts I’ve found were setting up the volume controls for the sound card in the mixing panels on the computer.

7

[hijac]

Why do those of you who use them prefer hardware boards as opposed to emulators? I use prety much every propellerhead product out there (ReBirth, ReCycle, Reason, etc.) as well as MixMeister and I can honestly say I don’t miss any of my old Roland mixing gear or the cost associated with all that gear (and the heat from all those tubes in some of the older gear was not good in an air-conditioning free zone).

I was having this discussion last night at the club where I DJ with a person whose parents own a local studio and he was talking about all the money they have invested in old mics and other gear and while I admire the investment, I can’t really tell the difference between the real deal and a carefully crafted filter.

Anyone care to share their feelings on this?

[/hijac]

8

Not sure I understand your question.

If you are asking what I think you are asking, the reason I use a hardware board is because I have a few instruments that need to be pre-amped and then sent into the computer for processing. Without the hardware there is no way to get your handheld instruments output into the computer.

As far as rebirth goes, unless you are just using samples you will still need to get your own music into the system.

Actually, if you are asking why use an external mixer at all then I guess am not really doing any “mixing” on the board itself. I only use it to preamp my guitar and mics then out put them to the computer. I do all the mixing of the tracks on the computer. The hardware is nice because you dont have to “click this” and “open/close that menu” there. I can just grab a knob and spin to fade, basic eq, gain adjustments and all that. With the computer is becomes a real pain in the ass when you are trying to play your instrument and do adjustments at your desk with a mouse. Besides the fact that you need to turn off your monitor when playing an electric anyway or else your get massive hum from the electric field of the monitor.

9

You can get sound boards for most PC’s that have every kind of input you want, so going directly from a guitar or a mic is just as easy now as a MIDI interface has always been (and the quality and versatility usually beats straight mixing boards for the money spent). But I see what you mean, especially if you already have the gear there isn’t much reason to go to all PC system for recording.

If I’m making a track by myself I will layer my tracks and I pretty much use ReBirth just for beats as it’s own layer then run it all into Reason for effects and filtering. But again I do see that if you are more used to using hardware dials and toggles and slides then a mouse can be a tough transition, it actually took me quite a while to get the hang as I don’t have any sort of manual for anything I use.

If you ever do want to use a PC mixing studio for a small investment you can go with a plasma screen (I have two in tandem) and you get to hum like you get with a CRT.

10

Flexibility.

If your DJ friend’s parents have a pro studio, they probably have something like a 2" 24 track. Some artists prefer analog tape. You need a hardware mixer for that. You also need a hardware mixer for all the modular tape and HD recorders out there.

Even if they had 24 tracks of input to something like protools, they would use a mixer to preamp the signals and make them nice an purty before going into protools. It would be insane not to. You don’t want raw signals going into your megabuck soundcard.

If your soundcard has a limited number of inputs, and you want to record a live drum kit or entire band, you need a mixer to bring the signals in and route them to the proper output.

Even the most basic studio, say one set of monitors, one set of headphones, stereo input to the computer, a couple of channels with mic pre’s, maybe a couple synth modules, should have at least a simple mixer. Makes life a little easier.

11

Flexibility.

If your DJ friend’s parents have a pro studio, they probably have something like a 2" 24 track. Some artists prefer analog tape. You need a hardware mixer for that. You also need a hardware mixer for all the modular tape and HD recorders out there.

Even if they had 24 tracks of input to something like protools, they would use a mixer to preamp the signals and make them nice an purty before going into protools. It would be insane not to. You don’t want raw signals going into your megabuck soundcard.

If your soundcard has a limited number of inputs, and you want to record a live drum kit or entire band, you need a mixer to bring the signals in and route them to the proper output.

Even the most basic studio, say one set of monitors, one set of headphones, stereo input to the computer, a couple of channels with mic pre’s, maybe a couple synth modules, should have at least a simple mixer. Makes life a little easier.

12

That was what I was trying to say. If you are recording more than one instrument at a time, or an instrument and vocals and you want them on seperate tracks, it aint gonna happen without a simple mixer.

I also think my mixer looks cool in my bedroom next to my guitar and other equipment. Makes me look like the real musician that I am not. :wink:

13

this tangent is at risk of becoming a hijack, but since verybody here including the OP seems interested in the discusion, I’ll contribute.

I’m a pro audio guy, run my own studio as well as mixing and editing in other studios freelance, and IMHO, arguing about hardware vs software mixing is like arguing about: which is a better tool, a belt sander or a pnumatic stapler?

i would never record a band without the benefit of a physical mixer. its a hundred times faster to twiddle knobs on a console that to root around thru a bunch of plug ins on a DAW, and most of the time, daws don’t do well (if the even offer the option) of imput manipulation. IOW, you can eq a recorder track in Protools, but not a lot of PT systems, (none that I am aware of) offer good sounding plug ins for EQingthe input before tracking. Also recording vocals without a hardware dedicate preamp is genreally doing your vocalist a disservice.

And while most pro and semi pro sound cards manufacturers sell sound cards with built in pres and phantom power and and a number of them offering card linking so that you can in facts with say- three MOTU 896s and a firewire card- record 24 tracks into a DAW simultaneuosly and mixdown later (retaining much more flexibility than committing to a two track drum mixdown during recording), i still prefer processing it through preferably outboard gear, or- at the very least- through a high quality analogue board with smooth quiet pre’s and solid channel strip EQs.

On the other hand, plug ins are terriffic and a stunning inovation for post production mixing and editing of audio. The ability to call up old settings, and choose from hundreds of different processing and effects options without investing in ROOOMs and ROOMs full of hardware, routing systems, and analogue effects chains is really really really time saving and creativity enabling.

The digital revoloution in music is a lot like the digital revloution on line and in the rest of the consumer markets, everybody jumped the gun initially, yelling ANALOGUE IS DEAD and talking about the studio in the box, but after a few years of experiemention, the more rational among us have started to think that rather than replacing all previously existing technology, digital audio editing and recording has become one on many invaluable tools in the studio (i love protools, but that doesn’t mean I am throwing about my console or my dBx pre’s any time soon)

and the smartest producers and engineers are the ones who keep an open mind, instead of automatically crying “they don’t make em like they used to” or in the other extreme not falling prey to “new toy” syndrome and delcaring every new plug-in or digital attempt to simulate an analogue phenomena as earthshattering. Don’t fear technology, but don’t forget the past either . They made some damn good records before anyone had ever heard of “bit depth”.

and as for not hearing the difference, I’ll be the first one to call bullshit when I hear people raving about thier 500 dollar polarized speaker cable or any other such audiophile nonsense, but on the other hand, recording is a subtle and more importantly a cumulative art. In other words, sure a drum track recorded direct into a cheap sound blaster card might not be vastly poorer sounding than the same track recorded into a dBx 587 tube pre light piped into protools from there, but if you record twenty four or 36 or more tracks, and apply effects, and a few bounces, and master back to a CD-R, the difference between taking these steps using quality gear, versus using cheap consumer gear will add up. Still a good engineer with 5 grand in gear is always gonna mix a better track than a bad engineer with 5 million.

thats it… thanks for listening
CJ

14

I’ll continue on this hijacked thread as well.

I’m mostly a hardware guy. Like Bad Hat said, I can get the sound 100 times faster on a real console over a mouse controlled one.

That said, I love the new computer software and the plug-ins. They have made my master work so much easier.

I do think I will always lean towards hardware though. One simple reason is compatibility. In the late 80s I spent several hundred dollars on some new equipment. One was a rack mount delay, the other was a piece of software called Edit Track Gold (or perhaps it was Edit Trak gold) for the Atari ST. The software was very similer to Cakewalk 2.0 on the PC.

So here we are years later and I am still using my trusty old delay and it works perfectly. It doesn’t have the range of my newer delays, but it works great for guitar and voice and it makes next to no noise.

The software on the other hard is in a box in storage and I can not use it. Well,. I could. But that means I have to take the Atari ST out of storage and set that old clunker up in the studio. That’s not going to happen anytime soon.

I feel safe spending $2000-3000 on hardware because I know it will still work great in 5 years. With the advancements of computers -and even more so platforms- I do not feel a $2000 piece of software will work in my next generation computer. So I’ve VERY picky on what software I use and how much I upgrade it.

I started with Cakewalk on the PC and I’ve only upgraded it once. I’m currently using version 6. I played with version 8 a few times but never saw a benefit to upgrading to it as I’m only using Cakewalk to control midi signals. I also use Sound Forge 4.5 which I upgraded from 3.0. I don’t have a use for Sound Forge 5.0 because I don’t see a benefit in the slight upgrade.

I know some people who are 100% software based and produce some great work. I also know hardware only guys and they sound good as well. Myself, I prefer to use both but I will only make major investments in hardware.

15

“Phantom power” is required by many condenser microphones. (Condenser mics work by establishing a difference in voltage between a fixed plate and a diaphram; electrical current is generated as the capacitance between the two varies when the diaphram moves in response to sound pressure. Phantom power supplies the voltage without requiring a separate transformer.) You’ll know if your mic needs it: if it does and you don’t have it on, you won’t get any sound. (Besides, the microphone’s instruction/spec sheet will tell you.) Otherwise, keep it off.

There are a few good ways to record an electric guitar, but plugging it directly into a mixing board isn’t one of them. Here is a succinct description of the problem and its solutions.

16

Due to the electromagnetic fields generated in the metal enclosure of the mixing board, otherworldly spirits are often conjured up. The phantom switch prevents this by using a dampening field originally developed by Nicolai Tesla in the 1930s. The construction of the Phantom coil usually involves a counter-wound coil around a slightly radioactive tin/polonium/argon alloy made in a special zero-G vacuum furnace.