Look, I can understand - and even get behind, to a certain degree - many of the arguments against the death penalty. But is this really a point you’d care to make? That I, who would support the execution of the man in question if he is shown beyond reasonable doubt to be guilty, am on the same level, morally and ethically, as Joseph Smith? So, by advocating the imprisonment of a (nonmurdering) kidnapper, are you as morally questionable as he/she? By advocating fines for reckless driving, are you as morally questionable as a burglar? Arguments like yours tend to drive reasonable people in the other direction, I’d say.
As to the death penalty question, I’d say that the issue is clouded by a lack of distinction between discussing the death penalty in principle and discussing the death penalty in practice. If you are against the death penalty because: (1) a higher percentage of minorities are executed; (2) it costs more to administer the death penalty than to sentence to life in prison; or (3) innocent people might be executed, than you’re really not against the death penalty, per se; you’re against the death penalty as it’s practiced at this point in time. In those cases, I’d say that rather than advocate against the death penalty, you might consider: (1) advocating for more aggressive efforts at racial equity in sentencing; (2) finding ways to streamline the justice system as a whole such that admininstering the DP costs less; and (3) requiring more stringent standards of proof in DP cases.
The reason I continue to support the death penalty (in principle, at least) is because I can’t get behind the only real argument against it: that it is wrong to kill, even in the pursuit of justice. I can’t see that the dividing line between the DP and a life in maximum security prison, spending every minute either bored beyond comprehension or fearing your own rape or murder, is so stark. I can’t believe that the state doing the latter to a person is really separable morally from the relatively quick and painless death represented by lethal injection. If we’re going to allow the one, then there’s no reason not to allow the other. And we have to allow the one.
Of course, only MHO, worth about what you’ve paid for it.
Wow, a dumbass comment followed by an ad hominium attack for my bloodlust. You sure got my respect with that post!
My question didn’t ask for a court case finding somebody innocent. My question didn’t require a re-opened case. It was not dishonest. The “system” actually allows for the kind of proof to come forward, in appealls, post conviction petitions and habeus. It’s not like the information is being hidden somewhere, kept secret by the government cabal of insane, bloodthirsty agents. I said: find me a case where an innocent person was put to death. I didn’t say that you had to have a court rule on it all. Heck, I’ve even gone around with Bricker on that Roger Keith Coleman case he trots out. (which, by the way Bricker, I keep hoping they’ll test the DNA just to calm everyone down.) Time allowing, I’ll do it again to gasp debate the guilt of those who have been sentenced to death. I’d be willing to do the same for you. The only problem is, there is no concrete, actual evidence that an innocent person has been put to death under the modern death penalty statute. And it certainly isn’t for lack of looking.
So, in close, fuck you for the idiotic name-calling, fuck you for misreading my post, fuck you for saying I’m pro-death penalty, and fuck off for just being you.
We do have the best death penalty in the world! It’s true. Our death penalty has the most layers of review, a separate trial for the death penalty known as the “penalty phase”. Moreover, the appeals after the process are extensive and exhaustive, conducted at a higher level because of the ultimate penalty involved. Plus, it costs a bundle to execute someone. Feel better?
Also: most honest used car salesmen, and most generous corporate middle management.
OK, so the guy obviously deserves to die, killing is wrong, and state killing is worse. The real tragedy is that the only chance the girl had to get away (in my hometown! GAH!) was to run while she was on camera. If she had kicked, gouged, screamed, and (especially) run – like my hypothetical daughter would be trained to do – maybe she could have run away.
Rule One: Never Let Anyone Approach Very Close To You Unless You Are In Public.
Why would someone (EVER) walk straight at you in a deserted place?
Turn around and run, run sideways, do anything to make the perps intentions clear. Ten feet is danger close – and I’m a six foot adult male. Yes, I’m paranoid. No, I’ve never personally been a crime victim. I’ve prevented crimes by thinking ahead.
Are you saying we should stop locking people up altogether?
The death penalty removes the immediate problem from sight, but doesn’t treat the illness. The issue of violence in this country is more prevalent now than ever before. I don’t know what the answer is, but killing people for killing people ain’t it. People are becoming desensitized.
be nice, but not practical. Killing everyone who commits a crime is too much and there will always be prisons as long as there are people.
Could it be that the country is becoming more violent because more people think that they can get away with it? Could people become desensitized because they are so removed from the process? If a person knows that if they commit crime X they will get punishment Y, no pardon, no parole, no celebrity pushing a political cause to get them a “get out of jail free card”, it might cut down on crime.
If he is found guilty and the sentence is death, etc, etc. If the sentence is life, I won’t be as happy, but I’m not going to have a hissy about it. That is up to the judg and jury to decide since they will see the evidence that we won’t see.
[QUOTE=alibey]
If a person knows that if they commit crime X they will get punishment Y, no pardon, no parole, no celebrity pushing a political cause to get them a “get out of jail free card”, it might cut down on crime.QUOTE]
That’s a lot of "if"s and "might"s to place on killing someone.
And OPs that don’t come back to comment in their thread when it’s reached the second page annoy the living fuck out of me. duffer, you’re a twit.
I don’t usually post in the Pit, but when I read the above statements my jaw literally dropped. To say that there is an equivocation between a child murderer and someone who wishes revenge for that despicable act is a truly obscene accusation. Did you people even think about the situation before writing that, or do you always react to a challenge of your own belief system by lashing out with hateful accusations?
Here, in case you are unaware, is what the murderer of Carlie Brucia did: he approached an innocent 11-year old child and forcibly led her off to endure an agonizing, terrifying death. He robbed her of her entire life, and damaged her family in ways they will never recover from. And why? Most likely to satisfy a sadistic sexual desire. This asshole abused and destroyed a young child for no other reason than his own momentary and twisted pleasure. Maybe some of you haven’t allowed yourself to think about what those last moments must have been like for that girl; maybe your view of the world won’t allow you to imagine that because it doesn’t fit in with your “there is no such thing as evil; everything is shades of grey” philosophy. I don’t know.
Now that we’ve cleared up what Carlie’s murderer did, let’s look at what the OP did: angered by the above actions, he expressed a desire to see this murderer punished by being put to death. This desire was not cold and impartial, as some of you seem to think it should be, because humans – regular humans with feelings – are not cold and impartial. People react emotionally and with horror because that is the only right and sane way to react to a crime like this. Anyone who doesn’t get angry, disturbed, and nauseous at crimes like this – anyone who doesn’t desire retribution – has had their humanity dulled. They are the ones who are desensitized, not those of us whose blood boils to read about a murdered child. Those of us who react with a desire to see the murderer suffer are reacting with natural human emotion. And you, Diogenes and Zebra and wakimika, are saying that this reaction is no less vile than the actions of the man who took pleasure in the brutal murder of an 11-year old girl? That is simply outrageous, and you should apologize.
And please don’t launch into some tirade about how barbaric I am for defending vigilante justice – I’m NOT defending vigilante justice, because I don’t believe in it. What I’m defending is the natural human desire for retribution and yes, even revenge. It is of course true that to maintain order, society must keep these desires in check by meting out a more impartial justice. But the desire for vengeance in a case like this is not in any way, shape, or form equal to the desire to murder children for pleasure. And if you truly believe that it is, you are a delusional idiot.
While I acknowledge the existence of a basic human desire for revenge and violent retribution, I believe that as evolved, intelligent creatures we should be above that.
Like I said before, I understand the temporary pleasure and relief it may give, but in the end, all we have are two people dead instead of one. And the vicious cycle continues.
wouldn’t this case prove that capital punishment in the first place for this individual would have been self defense?*
While I do believe rehabilitation works in alot of cases , not all I think warrant even the attempt. There are few things we as a society are on the same understanding of , Murder we all know from a wee age ,you do it , you die. In most states and in most cases. I do not have a problem with this. Personally if something unthinkable were happen to someone I care about deeply, say my girlfriend was was the victim of a horrible unthinkable crime in which she did not survive. I would kill. I would hunt down and kill the person or persons responisible. BUT I would do so knowing and accepting that I had commited a crime for which I would likely find myself being put to death for. Sure easy for me to say as I will never ( knock on something holy and wooden) have to be in this position. My point is , as I guess I should get to it , that while I am not a fan of control somethings just are just and right regardless of the flaws that we as humans create within it. Yes innocent people die . Yes this is horrible. Yes to all of the arguements against it . BUT the lives it saves are worth it. We have wars with acceptable losses but when we are faced with the ick in front of us we shy away from it. People die . Good and Evil. We are only human and can only try with what we know now. Maybe one day we will all live happy joy joy lives where the thought to kill another never enters our minds but until that day we have to think like a murderer and act to affect them.
*Disclaimer I am not aware what this individual’s crimes were previously
And you give me the impression that people should earn the right to vote.
Are all prison riots caused by prisoners on death row? Are all crimes, committed in jail, committed by prisoners on death row?
I could have sworn that there was an article in Shitheel Liberal Weekly about someone who committed murder, went to jail and came out a better man, useful to society and never killed a man again… I’m sure it was just a lie though - why would you want to rehabilitate those monsters when you can just as easily kill them? It is, after all, better to kill a thousand innocent people than letting one guilty go free.
These are human beings - they are our brothers, our fathers and our sons. They might have done a bad deed but that doesn’t mean we can kill them like rabid dogs. The bloodthirst and lust for revenge I have seen in some posts here disgust and sadden me, how can you think like that about your fellow human beings? We should be trying to understand and help them, not kill them because we can’t deal with what they have done.
Where I live, the most someone can be sentenced to be in jail is 16 years, and the prison year is 9 months (wierd, I know) so that you don’t stay in jail for more than 12 years, whatever horror you may have inflicted upon others - in very few cases they kill again, in most cases they don’t. If people are obviously unfit to be on the streets after their rehabilitation it is because they are ill and are therefore put in hospitals. We get a murder every now and then, there was even more than one last year, including a friend of mine that was murdered. She was killed by a guy that had been raping and beating up girls in his hometown for years and is, by any normal standards, a monster. I sincerely hope that he gets the help he needs and I hope I get a chance to meet him one day - not to blow his brains out but to see how he is doing. His family suffered just as much as my friends’ family and I wouldn’t want to be in either family’s steps. There are more than one victim when someonw is killed.
Wow… I didn’t know I could be this melodramatic, and excuse my bleeding heart. To the OP’s tactics: I know someone is going to call me an idiot (or worse) for what I’ve written but those who will are ignorant mofo’s who revel in seeing people suffer and die. I am holier than thou art.
All the special pleading in the world isn’t going to eliminate the possibility (the HIGH possibility) of erroneous convictions and executions.
People who support the death penalty have basically made the decision that it’s ok to kill innocent people because the DP cannot be enforced without killing innocent people. Any intellectually honest person will acknowledge this. I challenge anyone to explain how that possibility can be confidently eliminated.
Since the DP must kill innocent people, then the heinousness of the crimes is rendered moot because executions of innocent people by the state is just as heinous.
We also know that the DP is not a deterrent, is more expensive than LWP, and is an easy, painless out even for that unacceptably small percentage who are guilty. There is no rational reason to execute people except to satisfy the prurient, sadistic bloodlust of the populace. We’ve already established that DP supporters don’t really care if the person in the chair is guilty or not (or they logically could not support the DP) so the only conclusion left is that the mob just gets off on watching people die.
At least the perps had the guts to do their own killing.
