Tell me why he shouldn't die, you candy-asses.

[Kalhoun]

Wow, Zebra. That’s just awful. I’m so sorry for you and your family. I was just talking to Mr. Kalhoun about this (spurred by the recent discovery of Carlie’s body), and I can’t think of anything more horrible than losing a family member to murder. I’m glad you have the clarity and vision to see that taking another life isn’t the answer. The insanity has to stop. We have to find a way to rise above the barbarism.

[Ceejaytee]

@Zebra

I want to be a better person than the criminal.

I want to live in a better world tomorrow than the one I lived in yesterday.

Our prison system needs a top to bottom reform. The death penalty is one small part of what needs to be changed.

Zebra I’m so sorry for your loss. Your reasons here are exactly why I oppose the death penalty.

[carrot]

@SnoopyFan

The only shitstains I see around here are people who think justice is taking this guy, who did God knows what to that little girl, and feeding, clothing and sheltering him for the rest of his life.

Look, I can call you a shitstain too! And it will increase the validity of my arguments!

[Zebra]

[QUOTE=Knowed Out]
For those who prefer life sentencing in favor of the death penalty because of the possiblity of a faulty conviction, isn’t there an equal likelihood in both cases? Plus, there’s so many appeals in death penalty cases, those convicted spend at last 10 years on death row. Isn’t that enough time to determine the veracity of the evidence?

[QUOTE]

In a state like say, TEXAS. The state does not allow any evidence that comes to light after the first trial. (30 days or 100 days I’m not sure but a shot time limit)

So if on day 101 after the first convition, proof that another person did the crime is not allowed into the appeal. That is state law. So a long appeals process has no or little effect on a convition in that state.

Couple this with the fact that Texas public defender system is very weak. You have pubilc defenders who fall asleep in the courtroom as they are defending someone in a capitol case.

So if you are poor and accused of murder in Texas you are pretty screwed.

[Hamlet]

@Ludovic

I highly doubt that more people on the outside have been murdered by escaped convicts than people who have been murdered by the state due to false convictions.

Why are you so easily discounting the lives of prison guards or the lives of other inmates? Are they not as important to you? Are they not as worthy of protection?

This site (and I must say it pains me greatly to cite to the national review) indicates 810 people are in prison for their second murder.

This site in a book review, indicates that of the 558 murderers whose sentence was commuted to life in prison by the Furman decision, 7 murdered again.

Now, I challenge you to name me 7 innocent people who have been put to death under the modern death penalty system. Heck, name me one.

The reason I posed the “absolutely guilty” hypothetical is in an effort to find out the reasons for opposition to the death penalty. If you remove the possibility of mistake, are you still against the death penalty? Now, I know that is asking a lot, to ignore the possibility of mistake, but I want to get to the underlying issues in the death penalty. If you were absolutely convinced beyond all doubt that someone is guilty, would it change your mind? And, as Shodan pointed out, is it any less acceptable to sentence someone to prison for life?

And to those who believe life in prison is worse than death, how would you feel about leaving the decision up to the defendant and doing the opposite. If the murderer feels that life in prison is worse, we give him life in prison. However, if he would rather be sentenced to death, we can give him life in prison. Would that make it more acceptable to you?

I have no moral or Constitutional objections to certain people being sentenced to death. However, it should be reserved for only the most heinous, brutal, and evil murderers. The run to be “tough on crime” led to far too many extensions of the death penalty to include felony murders, etc. However, there are some crimes and some criminals, that are so evil that the most severe penalty imaginable serves justice.

[gobear]

**Snoopyfan[/b, it’s people like you who make me constantly aware of what a hypocritical sham Christianity is. You wave the Bible in every other discussion on this board, yet you take a repulsive joy in calling for the blood of a suspect who hasn’t even been tried yet.

Is that what Jesus would do?

[Hamlet]

@Zebra

In a state like say, TEXAS. The state does not allow any evidence that comes to light after the first trial. (30 days or 100 days I’m not sure but a shot time limit)

So if on day 101 after the first convition, proof that another person did the crime is not allowed into the appeal. That is state law. So a long appeals process has no or little effect on a convition in that state.

That is messed up, and I’d love to see a cite for this. Does the statute apply to federal habeus arguments also?

[Slacker]

@SnoopyFan

The only shitstains I see around here are people who think justice is taking this guy, who did God knows what to that little girl, and feeding, clothing and sheltering him for the rest of his life.

Good argument, SnoopyFan. A little short though. Did you forget to mention the cable TV and the fun games of football in the yard?

[LilShieste]

I am wondering why the only rebuttals to the “anti DP” argument are focused on refuting the “life in prison is worse than death” statement, instead of giving any attention to what jarbabyj and Zebra have said (which, it turns out, is the same reason I disagree with the DP). My apologies if I have missed any responses to their argument…

What are some of the reasons we place people in prison anyway? Personally, I think prison serves two main purposes: 1) Separate an offender from the society in which the crime (probably) occurred, and 2) Rehabilitate the offender (in a sense… that is the basic premise of punishment anyway, isn’t it? A good ol’ dose of Conditioning and Behavior Modification)

If we execute someone for the murder/rape/etc of someone else, then we are enforcing an “eye for an eye” punishment. One of the reasons we have laws in the first place, is to prevent people from just walking about the streets, taking the law(s) into their own hands, and offing people they think “deserve” it. Basically-- if we’re going to go to an “eye for an eye” type of punishment, why not just clear out the prisons, and enforce “eye for an eye” punishment on all criminals? Someone robbed a bank? Well, several people should rob the offender of their belongings as well (after returning the money to the bank, of course).

Bottom line-- we should look to punish criminals, not seek revenge on them.

LilShieste

[Bongmaster]

I think the single instance where taking someone’s life is acceptable is when there is an immediate concern for life and limb. Other than that I don’t believe anyone, including the government we live under, should have the right to end someone’s life. This is the core argument, the rest is fluff. Everyone will feel differently about this, there is no absolute right or wrong, just shades of grey.

[wakimika]

Death penalty supporters are savages, much like the alleged perp in question, Joseph Smith.

Really, what’s the difference? Killing is unjustified. Period.

[alibey]

The death penalty might not be a good deturant, but it is effective against repeat offenders. Everyone put to death has not commited another crime
It might be more of a deturant if the exicutions were made public, and inline with the crime commited. If the person was convicted for killing someone by shooting, stabbing, poisoning, whatever then that is how they should be killed.
As far as being locked up for life and being out of society, there was in the news of a convicted murderer who is tormenting the family of his victim by having the details, graphic details, of his crime posted on the internet. Now it would be hard for him to do from the grave.

Yes I am pro-death and I vote

[Bricker]

Keeping in mind that no person executed in the US since the re-instatement of the DP in the 70s has ever been found to be factually innocent after the fact, I would say the likelihood of an unjust sentence of life is more likely to impose suffering on the innocent.

Nor are they likely to be. Courts will not entertain moot arguments. Roger Keith Colemen was executed in 1992, despite serious doubts about his guilt. However, those doubts cannot be heard in court now, because the cause is mott.

When you say that no person executed has subsequently been found to be factually innocent, you’re being disingenuous… once they are executed, there is almost no legal forum for such a finding to be made.

• Rick

[Slacker]

@alibey

The death penalty might not be a good deturant, but it is effective against repeat offenders. Everyone put to death has not commited another crime

Same with those who have been locked in prison for the rest of their lifes. And that’s a hell of a lot cheaper.

As far as being locked up for life and being out of society, there was in the news of a convicted murderer who is tormenting the family of his victim by having the details, graphic details, of his crime posted on the internet. Now it would be hard for him to do from the grave.

A single bizarre incident is not a good foundation for an opinion on this matter.

[gex_gex]

originally posted by Hamlet
Now, I challenge you to name me 7 innocent people who have been put to death under the modern death penalty system. Heck, name me one.

This is dishonest, and you know it. Death penalty cases can’t be reopened once the death penalty has been carried out. The system prevents the kind of proof you’re looking for from coming forward.

If you’re only basis for argument is a dishonest one, you should perhaps review your bloodlust.

[don_t_ask]

@Fear Itself

I find you and your kind much more frightening than Joseph P. Smith. This twisted, logic-of-fear approach to public safety is a direct result of the Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive war. Let’s just skip trials altogether, and let all right-thinking citizens who can carry a gun kill whomever they think is a threat.

You are the shitstain on the underpants of the SDMB.

Do you really believe this? duffer is scarier than this guy who has been arrested 13 times in Florida in the last 10 years, who

was arrested in 1997 in Manatee County on kidnapping and false imprisonment charges but was acquitted a year later.

and will be proven to now be a murderer? Really?

If I was choosing next door neighbours my ranking would differ slightly.

Oh, Mr Smith’s acquittal :

In the 1997 kidnapping case, a 20-year-old woman in Bradenton said a man grabbed her as she walked by and tried to pull her away, according to records released by the Manatee County Sheriff’s Office.

“He got on top of me and told me to shut up or he would cut me,” she told authorities. After a struggle, she said, she managed to run into the street, and passengers in an approaching van stopped and rescued her.

Smith, found hiding behind a house by a police tracking dog, was acquitted by jurors after telling them he was trying to keep the woman from running into the street and she misunderstood.

Right.

[tiny_ham]

Once again, SnoopyFan inspires me to be a better Christian, if only to cancel her viciousness out.

Hey Snoopy, ever read the verse “whatever you do to the least of these, you also do unto me?” look it up sometime.

[don_t_ask]

Based on his previous record and the brazen nature of the latest event I’m betting that soon he will be a “serial killer”.

[pravnik]

@Knowed Out

For those who prefer life sentencing in favor of the death penalty because of the possiblity of a faulty conviction, isn’t there an equal likelihood in both cases? Plus, there’s so many appeals in death penalty cases, those convicted spend at last 10 years on death row. Isn’t that enough time to determine the veracity of the evidence?

Anthony Porter spent 16 years on death row for the shooting deaths of 19 year old Marilyn Green and 18 year old Jerry Hillard. His direct appeal was denied by the Illinois Supreme Court and certiorari was denied by the U.S. Supreme Court. He then claimed ineffective assitance of counsel and was denied relief by the state district judge, who was affirmed unanimously by the Illinois Supreme Court. He then filed a fedeal writ of habeas corpus and was denied by the federal district judge, who was unanimously affirmed by the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals. Certorari was again denied by the U.S. Supreme Court. 50 hours before he was to die he recieved a stay of execution so that his competency to be executed could be evaluated.

During his stay of execution, the real killer was found by a Northwesten University college professor, a group of his journalism students, and the private investigator they hired.

[alibey]

@Slacker

Same with those who have been locked in prison for the rest of their lifes. And that’s a hell of a lot cheaper.
A single bizarre incident is not a good foundation for an opinion on this matter.

While someone locked in prison can still commit a crime, the dead can not. Got a phone and some stolen card numbers, got friends on the outside, get out on parole due to prison overcrowding or served the sentence. And what about the prisoners that took a guard hostage last week?